Moderator
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:33 PM
That's fair. I'm just not a huge fan of people being really upset about giving up Delmonico. I get it, but it's not a big deal. Your other options here are logical, but I 'm sure they felt more comfortable going with more of the sure thing. JMO. Also, yes, the Feldman move was better than this one, for sure.
I'm upset about giving up Delmonico. Wanna argue with me about his value versus the value of adding a RP? 
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:36 PM
I'm upset about giving up Delmonico. Wanna argue with me about his value versus the value of adding a RP?
Not really, I get it. But it's annoying that in these arguments, people forget the fact that there is maybe a 20% chance that guys like Delmonico ever actually valuable to a big league club.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:36 PM
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:38 PM
Not really, I get it. But it's annoying that in these arguments, people forget the fact that there is maybe a 20% chance that guys like Delmonico ever actually valuable to a big league club.
Owner
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:39 PM
I'm upset about giving up Delmonico. Wanna argue with me about his value versus the value of adding a RP?
Sure.
Want to make the argument the O's were better off not adding someone external for the pen?
That they were better with Asenscio vs. Rodriguez?
Or if you think they should have just gone with Gausman or Britton (or S. Johnson when healthy) in the pen... what happens if you wanted to replace Hammel with Gausman or Britton?
I don't think anyone will disagree that Rodriguez is not the pitcher he was, and that he is going to be pitching in a harder environment.
The argument is, are the O's a better team with Rodriguez than without him? Isn't that the bottom-line, here in July '13, when you are trying to get back and compete in October?
It gives Buck another option... and I think it helps the other guys (Johnson, O'Day, Hunter, Matusz) you will be relying on.
Delmonico was a good prospect with decent value. They might have maximized his value, if he is exposed at higher levels with his questionable bat speed, and position questions.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:39 PM
You can't assume anything in any trade...we could have dealt Delmonico for Stanton and it still blow up in our faces.
Again..isn't this what we have wanted? Trade a solid but very flawed prospect for a guy that could help us get to the playoffs and maybe win a title?
Yes, but in a farm system scarce with any real talent, Delmonico is a name most O's fans recognize, and therefore there's outrage. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:40 PM
Yes, but in a farm system scarce with any real talent, Delmonico is a name most O's fans recognize, and therefore there's outrage. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Moderator
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:40 PM
You can't assume anything in any trade...we could have dealt Delmonico for Stanton and it still blow up in our faces.
Again..isn't this what we have wanted? Trade a solid but very flawed prospect for a guy that could help us get to the playoffs and maybe win a title?
Agree with the premise. Disagree about him being only solid and very flawed. Would have dealt from a list of other guys, he's one of 5-6 I wouldn't have touched. (and a week ago, they agreed with me)
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:42 PM
I don't think it was that big of a need. The pen has between quite good of late. I'm pretty confident in the O's 5 main relievers as a group, them add Gausman or Johnson and that's a very strong group along with TJ as the long man.
KRod is fine though. It's exciting that they're being aggressive. I just like the Feldman move more along with other potential moves.
Key words: of late. I think they are looking ahead a few weeks or so, when maybe they aren't so good.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:42 PM
Yes, but in a farm system scarce with any real talent, Delmonico is a name most O's fans recognize, and therefore there's outrage. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
No doubt. Where would you rank him in the system here? You might knock him down 5-6 notches at least in other systems. Big difference trading a #6 prospect vs a #12. Could be the same guy, just different organizations.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:42 PM
I know you aren't saying this but I want to say that I don't think this applies to people here.., could see that being the case elsewhere.
Yeah, sorry about that. That's what I meant.
It's the misunderstanding, elsewhere, not here, that a decent prospect in a poor farm system, makes giving him up way over blown, IMHO.
Owner
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:44 PM
Agree with the premise. Disagree about him being only solid and very flawed. Would have dealt from a list of other guys, he's one of 5-6 I wouldn't have touched. (and a week ago, they agreed with me)
Fair enough.
Moderator
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:45 PM
Sure.
Want to make the argument the O's were better off not adding someone external for the pen?
That they were better with Asenscio vs. Rodriguez?
Or if you think they should have just gone with Gausman or Britton (or S. Johnson when healthy) in the pen... what happens if you wanted to replace Hammel with Gausman or Britton?
I don't think anyone will disagree that Rodriguez is not the pitcher he was, and that he is going to be pitching in a harder environment.
The argument is, are the O's a better team with Rodriguez than without him? Isn't that the bottom-line, here in July '13, when you are trying to get back and compete in October?
It gives Buck another option... and I think it helps the other guys (Johnson, O'Day, Hunter, Matusz) you will be relying on.
Delmonico was a good prospect with decent value. They might have maximized his value, if he is exposed at higher levels with his questionable bat speed, and position questions.
Don't see the BP as an area of need. At all. Who did you upgrade over? You had JJ, O'Day, Matusz, and Hunter already getting all the late-leverage situations. Is he significantly better than any of them that it required giving up a guy that you think will end up being an .850-.900 OPS bat?
Would I have dealt any one or two of 15 other guys for him? Sure. But he was a luxury. It wasn't an upgrade in the rotation where they REALLY needed, and what are you going to do with Hammel when you bump him to upgrade him? He's going to the pen, which adjusts people's roles, but it adds depth just like you are arguing for.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:47 PM
Don't see the BP as an area of need. At all. Who did you upgrade over? You had JJ, O'Day, Matusz, and Hunter already getting all the late-leverage situations. Is he significantly better than any of them that it required giving up a guy that you think will end up being an .850-.900 OPS bat?
Would I have dealt any one or two of 15 other guys for him? Sure. But he was a luxury. It wasn't an upgrade in the rotation where they REALLY needed, and what are you going to do with Hammel when you bump him to upgrade him? He's going to the pen, which adjusts people's roles, but it adds depth just like you are arguing for.
Umm, Asencio? Those guys you listed can't pitch in every win. We're walking a tight rope pitching the same guys all the time as much as we have.
BTW: Jim Beattie called Vlad a luxury in 2004 because they had Jay Gibbons. There are no luxuries when you're trying to win a world championship.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:47 PM
Owner
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:48 PM
Don't see the BP as an area of need. At all. Who did you upgrade over? You had JJ, O'Day, Matusz, and Hunter already getting all the late-leverage situations. Is he significantly better than any of them that it required giving up a guy that you think will end up being an .850-.900 OPS bat?
Would I have dealt any one or two of 15 other guys for him? Sure. But he was a luxury. It wasn't an upgrade in the rotation where they REALLY needed, and what are you going to do with Hammel when you bump him to upgrade him? He's going to the pen, which adjusts people's roles, but it adds depth just like you are arguing for.
Well, when Ascensio is not on the team tomorrow, you upgraded over him to start.
Why does Rodriguez have to be an upgrade over Johnson, O'Day, Hunter, and Matusz? He just has to add to them, and provide another option which he does.
You have 4 starters you are going to rely on the rest of the way in Gonzalez, Chen, Tillman, and Feldman... I think upgrading externally over Hammel was the luxury, and you have options in Gausman and Britton to replace internally.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:50 PM
Stoner, you can use that logic to defend any trade that upgrades the team. There has to be a point where you say it's not worth it. I can see why you or anyone else think this is worth it, but I'm not a fan of the "well it upgrades our team in a pennant race and that's the bottom line" argument.
Right, I see what you're saying here. What Chris meant to say (IMO) is that the O's are better now, without significantly hindering their future. Face it: Delmonico is a decent prospect to talk about, but nothing special at all. We'll forget all about him come Opening Day 2014.
Obviously Texas, for example, is much better now...but if they miss the playoffs this year and Olt goes on to be a star, it could really come back to bite them. I don't think anyone sees Delmonico producing enough to come back to bite the Orioles. And if he does, good for him. Jose Bautista blew up too...doesn't mean the O's should have kept him.
Moderator
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:51 PM
Yeah, sorry about that. That's what I meant.
It's the misunderstanding, elsewhere, not here, that a decent prospect in a poor farm system, makes giving him up way over blown, IMHO.
It comes down to what you really think of Delmonico. If you think that he's going to be a 15 HR first baseman with a decent eye, sure he's not that big of a piece to lose. If you think that Walker is a better prospect, sure, why not.
If you are more optimistic and you think he's got 25-30 HR potential, and may OPS in that .850+ range, then it stings a lot. I personally was much higher on him than some others, so it stings.
I wouldn't have moved: Gausman, Bundy (duh), Schoop, Delmonico, ERod and PROBABLY not Hader or Ohlman...but I'd think about those two.
HOF
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:52 PM
Umm, Asencio? Those guys you listed can't pitch in every win. We're walking a tight rope pitching the same guys all the time as much as we have.
BTW: Jim Beattie called Vlad a luxury in 2004 because they had Jay Gibbons. There are no luxuries when you're trying to win a world championship.
Owner
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:55 PM
Stoner, you can use that logic to defend any trade that upgrades the team. There has to be a point where you say it's not worth it. I can see why you or anyone else think this is worth it, but I'm not a fan of the "well it upgrades our team in a pennant race and that's the bottom line" argument.
Sure, there is a point where it's not worth it.
Trading Delmonico is no where near that point for me.
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