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#301 Mackus

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 08:22 AM

Right now, if we have any intention, not to lose 100 games again, next year, Akin should not be counted on to man a starting spot.  Now if we plan on flushing yet another season, by hiding under the "rebuild" label once again, then he might get a spot in the rotation.

 

I fully expect another tanked season.  A few legit prospects up by mid-year but no serious external additions in hopes of being non-terrible.



#302 Mike B

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 08:29 AM

I fully expect another tanked season.  A few legit prospects up by mid-year but no serious external additions in hopes of being non-terrible.

Yea, I am with you.  I think we are already seeing comments from Roch and Melewski, that lead me to think we have one more year of really bad baseball.

I think some of these guys could benefit from having legitimate MLB pitchers to rely on.

Right now, money means more than wins to  them.


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#303 BSLBobPhelan

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 08:52 AM

I fully expect another tanked season. A few legit prospects up by mid-year but no serious external additions in hopes of being non-terrible.


I can’t say I would be surprised at all if you’re right but my gut says the full on tanking is over.

#304 NewMarketSean

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:06 AM

I can’t say I would be surprised at all if you’re right but my gut says the full on tanking is over.

 

There's tanking and then there's "let's see what happens".

 

Next year is probably more "let's see what happens" with Adley and some other legit prospects getting called up in addition to the guys who've "earned" a spot on next year's OD roster. Guys like Zimmerman, Akin, etc.

 

Probably a 95+ loss team, but not the epic dumpster fires we've seen since 2018.


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#305 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:24 AM

Next year wont be a tank if only because of the internal growth and production. If theyre tanking theyll trade away or non tender the likes of Trey, Santander, Sulser, Means. That isnt going to happen. No more than 1 of these guys will be gone

#306 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:25 AM

Am hoping theyll add to the pitching staff with legit ML arms. Even if only on 1 yr deals for slighty above avg guys

#307 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:30 AM

Akin put together 7 starts down the stretch with a 4.21 ERA, just barely 5 innings a start though. Still not great, but at least he finished strong, especially given the injury he was dealing with.


“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” -2022 Trade Deadline

"It's liftoff from here" - after selling on 2022

"We're on a slight upward arc" - Winter Meetings 2022

"I think it's really hard to sit there and chart a course and say, 'We're likely to win the division.'" - Winter Meetings 2022

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#308 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:31 AM

Next year wont be a tank if only because of the internal growth and production. If theyre tanking theyll trade away or non tender the likes of Trey, Santander, Sulser, Means. That isnt going to happen. No more than 1 of these guys will be gone

Sorry bud, but sitting on literally $100 million dollars or more, and refusing to make the big league club better next year externally is tanking. There's no justification for it whatsoever.


“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” -2022 Trade Deadline

"It's liftoff from here" - after selling on 2022

"We're on a slight upward arc" - Winter Meetings 2022

"I think it's really hard to sit there and chart a course and say, 'We're likely to win the division.'" - Winter Meetings 2022

Mike Elias


#309 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:33 AM

Theyre gonna add to the payroll its just not going to be enough for anyone

#310 makoman

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:36 AM

Next year will probably at best be like 2011. Still not very good but hopefully some positive signs somewhere. But tanking or not Akin should definitely have an opportunity to compete for the rotation. Not given anything of course, see how he looks in spring.

#311 Mackus

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:13 AM

Next year wont be a tank if only because of the internal growth and production. If theyre tanking theyll trade away or non tender the likes of Trey, Santander, Sulser, Means. That isnt going to happen. No more than 1 of these guys will be gone

 

To me tanking would be not adding any actual MLB help to this roster.  Keeping Means and Mancini doesn't mean they aren't tanking, just like it didn't mean they weren't tanking this year or last year.

 

If all they add is a few more guys like Galvis, Harvey, Franco to this roster, then it's tanking.  Intentionally being as bad as you can be.  We'll have a few more prospects or young guys getting time than we had this year, so it won't be as uninspiring, but it's still making zero effort to actually field a real team.

 

My bar for them is very low.  Just spend a tiny amount of money and sign a few guys who actually might not suck.  A couple SP on 2-3 year deals.  I'm not asking for Corey Seager or a $100M+ SP.  Galvis or Harvey or Iglesias and other low-end vets would be ok if they were surrounded by mostly solid MLB talent.  When these guys are the big ringers you bring in to help your team, that's unacceptable and it means you're hoping to lose games.



#312 Mackus

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:15 AM

Theyre gonna add to the payroll its just not going to be enough for anyone

 

Under $10M in new guarantees given out is my guess.  That's total contract, not just 2022 salary.  That would be tanking.

 

If they sign 2 real SP to 2-3 year deals for $20-45M total each and maybe one infielder to a similar deal, that would be great.  I'll be content with that.  What they really should be doing is closer to Stoner's expectation, but I'll take less.  Mostly because I'm expecting as close to nothing as you can really do.



#313 BSLBobPhelan

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:17 AM

Akin put together 7 starts down the stretch with a 4.21 ERA, just barely 5 innings a start though. Still not great, but at least he finished strong, especially given the injury he was dealing with.


Enough for me to still think he could be a solid reliever.

#314 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:23 AM

To me tanking would be not adding any actual MLB help to this roster. Keeping Means and Mancini doesn't mean they aren't tanking, just like it didn't mean they weren't tanking this year or last year.

If all they add is a few more guys like Galvis, Harvey, Franco to this roster, then it's tanking. Intentionally being as bad as you can be. We'll have a few more prospects or young guys getting time than we had this year, so it won't be as uninspiring, but it's still making zero effort to actually field a real team.

My bar for them is very low. Just spend a tiny amount of money and sign a few guys who actually might not suck. A couple SP on 2-3 year deals. I'm not asking for Corey Seager or a $100M+ SP. Galvis or Harvey or Iglesias and other low-end vets would be ok if they were surrounded by mostly solid MLB talent. When these guys are the big ringers you bring in to help your team, that's unacceptable and it means you're hoping to lose games.

We disagree on what tanking means. While I dont expect them to spend a lot of money I do think they are going to make an effort to win next year. Os fans need to get used to trying to win with minimal spending in FA anyway. They can and will eventually shop in the mid tier range but no higher.

#315 Mackus

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:04 AM

We disagree on what tanking means. While I dont expect them to spend a lot of money I do think they are going to make an effort to win next year. Os fans need to get used to trying to win with minimal spending in FA anyway. They can and will eventually shop in the mid tier range but no higher.

 

I don't think they'll sign anyone even close to mid-tier ($50-100M) this offseason or in the next few.  I don't think they'll even sign anyone in whatever we wanna call the next tier down ($25-50M).  Frankly all I'm asking for is a few bottom tier ($10-25M) guys.  If all they give out is "so low it's not even on a tier" type 1/$3M or less deals, then that's tanking.  No effort at all made to win.



#316 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:20 AM

Yeah I dont believe in having that strong a link between tanking and FA spending. As far as trading the guys I mentioned, I think they didnt trade them this past offseason y because of value combined with lower cost. If theyre tanking/rebuilding why wouldnt they trade those guys now as theyre all getting more expensive and all have raised their stock other than Santander. If youre tanking/rebuilding why would you offer Santander arb and or not trade him for the best offer. Maybe they will non tender or trade him for the best offer but Im betting they wont

#317 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:22 AM

Yeah I dont believe in having that strong a link between tanking and FA spending. As far as trading the guys I mentioned, I think they didnt trade them this past offseason y because of value combined with lower cost. If theyre tanking/rebuilding why wouldnt they trade those guys now as theyre all getting more expensive and all have raised their stock other than Santander.

I don't think it's fair either, how people have piled on the O's of all franchises as the team to blame for the "tanking" epidemic in professional sports. They are the most recent (kind of), but following a tried and true path . All that said, can't we all agree to call it what it is? It IS tanking. It just is, there's no way around that, man. If they pocketed everything else, and took the MLB.TV shared revenue alone and put it into players, they'd be better. But they won't.


“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” -2022 Trade Deadline

"It's liftoff from here" - after selling on 2022

"We're on a slight upward arc" - Winter Meetings 2022

"I think it's really hard to sit there and chart a course and say, 'We're likely to win the division.'" - Winter Meetings 2022

Mike Elias


#318 Mackus

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:26 AM

I don't think that not having dumped the few moderately priced guys that they do have on the roster means that they aren't tanking.  If they are making no effort to win, then I think it's fair to call that tanking.  If they don't like that label, then build a roster that looks like maybe you're trying to not finish in last place.  Until then, they've gotta wear it.



#319 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:33 AM


I don't think it's fair either, how people have piled on the O's of all franchises as the team to blame for the "tanking" epidemic in professional sports. They are the most recent (kind of), but following a tried and true path . All that said, can't we all agree to call it what it is? It IS tanking. It just is, there's no way around that, man. If they pocketed everything else, and took the MLB.TV shared revenue alone and put it into players, they'd be better. But they won't.

I just dont think tanking is the right word. Especially in baseball where we all agree that a top pick isnt as valuable as a top pick in basketball or football. To me teams have tanked in other sports while spending a larger % of money on payroll. Tanking to me implies an intent to lose to gain something in return. The Os have been rebuilding and while not caring at all how the club performs. If we would have won 70 games each of the last few years that wouldve been fine with Elias. He doesnt care about the difference between 50 and 70. He has cared about trying to build up the infrastructure.

#320 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:37 AM

I agree, he does care about the infrastructure, and thank goodness because we've not had that kind of leadership in my lifetime in this org. So all that stuff is great, genuinely.

But he doesn't at all care about winning at the major league level, and that alone justifies the tanking label for me. I do think he values top 5 picks. He wants to stack as many blue chip prospects as possible before the expectations come.
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“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” -2022 Trade Deadline

"It's liftoff from here" - after selling on 2022

"We're on a slight upward arc" - Winter Meetings 2022

"I think it's really hard to sit there and chart a course and say, 'We're likely to win the division.'" - Winter Meetings 2022

Mike Elias





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