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#61 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

Jeter's career value is similar to Larkin's and Trammel's, yet he's ranked much more highly than both and one of those guys don't seem likely to even make the HOF.

This is only true if you believe Jeter has been worth -133 runs defensively. I don't buy it. Trammell and Larkin are borderline HoFers but they're not in Jeter's class. He kills them offensively and in durability.

#62 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

And to put that in some kind of perspective, Adam Dunn is worth -128 runs defensively and that's with the majority of his career in the NL. He hasn't been hidden at DH for long. Jeter isn't a good defensive SS by a long shot, but he's not historically bad.
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#63 DJ MC

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:41 PM

And to put that in some kind of perspective, Adam Dunn is worth -128 runs defensively and that's with the majority of his career in the NL. He hasn't been hidden at DH for long. Jeter isn't a good defensive SS by a long shot, but he's not historically bad.

Why not?

#64 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:45 PM

Why not?

Because I've watched him play. And, no, putting faith in a defensive statistic that's proven to be flawed is not better than trusting your eyes.
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#65 DJ MC

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

Because I've watched him play. And, no, putting faith in a defensive statistic that's proven to be flawed is not better than trusting your eyes.

I've seen him play, too. He's a pretty good third baseman for a shortstop.

He has a great arm, which makes up for a lot of problems, but he has never had good enough range. In a sane world he would have been moved instead of Rodriguez in 2004.

And considering all of the numbers agree that he stinks there, at some point simply going "the stat is flawed" smacks of trying to downplay what disagrees with the set opinion/narrative instead of asking WHY the stat (plural in this case) tells us what it tells us.

#66 SBTarheel

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:08 PM

Russ,
Learn from me, buddy, it's just not worth it.

I've finally learned.
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#67 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

Russ,
Learn from me, buddy, it's just not worth it.

I've finally learned.

yeah, good advice.

#68 DJ MC

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:52 PM

Russ,
Learn from me, buddy, it's just not worth it.

I've finally learned.

Right. Because I think Jeter is a very bad defensive player for his position (an opinion held by many people who aren't natural Yankee or Jeter haters) I'm lumped in with the people who knee-jerk and claim that he's awful and sucks. Great debate tactic.

Please don't make my joking comments about your opinion of Jeter turn serious. Because there are times I want to wonder.

#69 SBTarheel

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

Right. Because I think Jeter is a very bad defensive player for his position (an opinion held by many people who aren't natural Yankee or Jeter haters) I'm lumped in with the people who knee-jerk and claim that he's awful and sucks. Great debate tactic.

Please don't make my joking comments about your opinion of Jeter turn serious. Because there are times I want to wonder.


Not lumping in at all, no need to overreact. I know you don't think he "sucks". It's all good, my friend.
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#70 mweb08

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:21 PM

This is only true if you believe Jeter has been worth -133 runs defensively. I don't buy it. Trammell and Larkin are borderline HoFers but they're not in Jeter's class. He kills them offensively and in durability.


Well I do believe he's been a bad defensive SS. How bad in terms of exact runs is hard to say.

He kills Larkin in durability, but not on offense as they're basically even on a per game basis.

Trammell was a much better defensive SS than Jeter.

#71 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:22 PM

Well I do believe he's been a bad defensive SS. How bad in terms of exact runs it hard to say.

He kills Larkin in durability, but not on offense as they're basically even on a per game basis.

Trammell was a much better defensive SS than Jeter.

Agreed on all counts. I should have been more clear in my post about the differences.

#72 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

It's not worth it because there's really no arguing against my initial comment. ;)

His defense and clutchness is overrated.

His defense is overrated by the media. I don't think fans outside of NY think he's any good defensively.

#73 mweb08

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

His defense is overrated by the media. I don't think fans outside of NY think he's any good defensively.


I don't think fans that pay attention to advanced stats think he's good defensively. I do think most common fans think he's quite good defensively. Gold gloves and the aforementioned media leads to that. How could it not?

#74 SBTarheel

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:33 PM

I rarely argue, personally. It's all good.

I'm just saying that I make a post congratulating him on an amazing accomplishment, and people just couldn't wait to shoot it down and talk about his perceived weaknesses. instead of, wow, that's impressive (which is what would happen if it were say, Mike Trout or whatever), but since it's Jeter, and god forbid we appreciate his greatness over the years, we have to ignore the great stuff, and point out that he didn't deserve his gold gloves or some nonsense.

That's all I meant when i say it's not worth it..no biggie.
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#75 Russ

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

I don't think fans that pay attention to advanced stats think he's good defensively. I do think most common fans think he's quite good defensively. Gold gloves and the aforementioned media leads to that. How could it not?

Depends where people get there info from, I guess. Maybe i just assume everyone does the same thing I do. You are probably right.

#76 mweb08

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:40 PM

Depends where people get there info from, I guess. Maybe i just assume everyone does the same thing I do. You are probably right.


People like us are still in the minority.

#77 mweb08

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:44 PM

I rarely argue, personally. It's all good.

I'm just saying that I make a post congratulating him on an amazing accomplishment, and people just couldn't wait to shoot it down and talk about his perceived weaknesses. instead of, wow, that's impressive (which is what would happen if it were say, Mike Trout or whatever), but since it's Jeter, and god forbid we appreciate his greatness over the years, we have to ignore the great stuff, and point out that he didn't deserve his gold gloves or some nonsense.

That's all I meant when i say it's not worth it..no biggie.


Except that didn't happen. Stoner echoed the sentiment of your post and then you went on the offensive by saying "the overrated talk is just silly."

Without that, I wouldn't have seen a purpose to say anything negative about him. But the overrated talk is far from silly so I interjected.

#78 SBTarheel

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:43 PM

Except that didn't happen. Stoner echoed the sentiment of your post and then you went on the offensive by saying "the overrated talk is just silly."

Without that, I wouldn't have seen a purpose to say anything negative about him. But the overrated talk is far from silly so I interjected.


Fair enough.
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#79 SBTarheel

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:44 PM

Why are these out of order...weird.
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#80 mweb08

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:49 PM

Why are these out of order...weird.


You just knew to say fair enough to me while just automatically quoting whatever I said. :lol:




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