210 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

It makes perfect sense. Clearly not all HOF'ers are equal and they can easily be split up into further categories.

 
If you don't want everyone to be in one level, don't support "lesser" people for the Hall
 
That's the whole point in being a "big Hall" or "small Hall" guy. You have one level that's the Hall of Fame, and everyone else stays in the museum.

No, it's not the whole point at all. No one, regardless of how small a hall guy they are pretends like all the players in the hall or in their hypothetical hall are on the same level.

[Pedro Cerrano]

DJMC v. Weber? On a holiday week?

[SportsGuy]

What BNick is saying is wrong....and right.

He's wrong in talking about the eye test. HOF is about elite production. I didn't need to watch Babe Ruth to know how great he was.

Now, there are plenty of people who say "so and so didn't have the look of a HOFer". While that is bs, voters definitely use that..particularly ones who are clueless.

[SportsGuy]

Oh and no, McGriff is another one who doesn't belong in this discussion.

He makes the "Hall of very good".

[bnickle]

Obviously, the numbers have to be there. The numbers are by far the biggest factor. If the numbers aren't there you don't even have a discussion. I'm not sure why I'm being lumped into anti numbers when it comes to the HOF discussion.


I do think something should be said for your gut instinct on a guy and then if the numbers say borderline, the eye test. Again, ideally, you have a completely unbiased observer who watched a player play hundreds if not thousands of games.

[bnickle]

Just realized I'll be seeing a big Tigers fan this weekend. Saw Trammell play his whole career. I'll get his take on his candidacy.

[DJ MC]

No, it's not the whole point at all. No one, regardless of how small a hall guy they are pretends like all the players in the hall or in their hypothetical hall are on the same level.

 

Except it isn't a level, it's a line.

 

You have most people here... | ...then the ones in the HoF here.

 

It doesn't matter that Burt Blyleven isn't as absolutely great as Lefty Grove, or that Cal Ripken was superior to Luis Aparicio. They all make it across the line.

[DJ MC]

Just realized I'll be seeing a big Tigers fan this weekend. Saw Trammell play his whole career. I'll get his take on his candidacy.

 

Whitaker, too.

[mweb08]

No, it's not the whole point at all. No one, regardless of how small a hall guy they are pretends like all the players in the hall or in their hypothetical hall are on the same level.

 
Except it isn't a level, it's a line.
 
You have most people here... | ...then the ones in the HoF here.
 
It doesn't matter that Burt Blyleven isn't as absolutely great as Lefty Grove, or that Cal Ripken was superior to Luis Aparicio. They all make it across the line.

Sure, but those players past the line can easily be separated into groups because there is a gigantic difference between the very best and the more borderline guys. That leads to plenty of further discussion as well as further educates fans on how good these players were.

[mweb08]

Oh and no, McGriff is another one who doesn't belong in this discussion.


He makes the "Hall of very good".

But if he hit a few more homers he might already be in the Hall. And even if he hit 550 homers, the eye test for him would barely be changed which is why I asked that question.

[DJ MC]

Sure, but those players past the line can easily be separated into groups because there is a gigantic difference between the very best and the more borderline guys. That leads to plenty of further discussion as well as further educates fans on how good these players were.

 

Right, because baseball fans are known for their inability to educate themselves on the relative quality of players

[BSLChrisStoner]

Sports Illustrated: JAWS and the 2015 Hall of Fame ballot: Picking the final 10

http://www.si.com/ml...allot-final-ten

[mweb08]

Sure, but those players past the line can easily be separated into groups because there is a gigantic difference between the very best and the more borderline guys. That leads to plenty of further discussion as well as further educates fans on how good these players were.

 
Right, because baseball fans are known for their inability to educate themselves on the relative quality of players

Some are known for that. Anyway, I think an actual pyramid HOF would be fantastic to visit and it would he great for discussion. I really don't see the downside.

[DJ MC]

Some are known for that. Anyway, I think an actual pyramid HOF would be fantastic to visit and it would he great for discussion. I really don't see the downside.

 

I'd rather have the current system.

[mweb08]

Here's my article from last year for anyone that might be interested: http://baltimorespor...hetical-ballot/

 

Mike, I did have McGwire as worthy even though he didn't make it on my ballot; meanwhile, Sosa was in the just missed being worthy category. 

[mweb08]

And for this year:

 

Bonds

Clemens

Pedro

Johnson

Piazza

Bagwell

Biggio

Raines

Mussina

Schilling

[mweb08]

I'm really curious why Seth kept it at 8 even though he's including PED guys.

[mweb08]

Sheffield is interesting to me. He was actually rather easily a better offensive player than Sosa, but most may not think that due to the difference in homers and fame.

 

The main issue for Sheff is his defense, or at least how it was rated by the stats on FG and Baseball Reference. It's rated terribly, which really brings down his WAR numbers (still higher than Sosa'a), but I'm skeptical that it was really that bad, and even if it was, he's still a borderline candidate IMO. 

[RShack]

Sheffield is interesting to me. He was actually rather easily a better offensive player than Sosa, but most may not think that due to the difference in homers and fame.

 

The main issue for Sheff is his defense, or at least how it was rated by the stats on FG and Baseball Reference. It's rated terribly, which really brings down his WAR numbers (still higher than Sosa'a), but I'm skeptical that it was really that bad, and even if it was, he's still a borderline candidate IMO. 

 

Not that it matters, but Sheffield was the scarier of the two... I bet he had more pitchers worried about a line drive hitting them right in the face...

[DJ MC]

Not that it matters, but Sheffield was the scarier of the two... I bet he had more pitchers worried about a line drive hitting them right in the face...

 

Sheffield is either going to be this generation's Jim Rice or Dick Allen in regards to the voting. Either the memory of his attitude will fade over time and the memory of his "fearedness" will get stronger, or the writers and later committees will simply hold a grudge and tell him to pound sand every time his name comes up.