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2015 HOF Voting


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#81 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:05 PM

Mattingly had 5 years. Come on. You guys are letting guys in on 5 HOF worthy years. Jeez. And most of you here are too young to have really knew what you saw with Mattingly in his prime. Im one of the older ones in this group of posters and I dont remember 84-88. Too young to really know what you were seeing.



#82 DJ MC

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:07 PM

Ha.

 

I get the arguments people make for inclusion....  it is hard to say 'no' to some guys when you look back and see some of the players who are in the HOF.

Ultimately though I think just because someone else previously got in with lower standards, doesn't mean you have to include someone else.

 

Right. That's a slippery slope, but it's easy to fall into the trap, especially when the only "standards" are the ones set by the voters.

 

How do you argue against Fred McGriff when Tony Perez was voted in? How do you argue against Don Mattingly when Ralph Kiner was voted in? How do you argue against Sammy Sosa when Andre Dawson was voted in?


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#83 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:09 PM

Have your own standards. Its unacceptable to say this guy got in so that means I must put that guy in. You'll have a HOF bigger than the whole damn state of NY. 



#84 DJ MC

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:10 PM

Mattingly had 5 years. Come on. You guys are letting guys in on 5 HOF worthy years. Jeez. And most of you here are too young to have really knew what you saw with Mattingly in his prime. Im one of the older ones in this group of posters and I dont remember 84-88. Too young to really know what you were seeing.

 

Yes, beat that Mattingly strawman into the ground.


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#85 RShack

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:11 PM

Mattingly had 5 years. Come on. You guys are letting guys in on 5 HOF worthy years. Jeez. And most of you here are too young to have really knew what you saw with Mattingly in his prime. Im one of the older ones in this group of posters and I dont remember 84-88. Too young to really know what you were seeing.

 

Mattingly is a repeat of the Dale Murphy dilemma... except Murph didn't wear pinstripes...


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#86 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:32 PM

Mattingly is a repeat of the Dale Murphy dilemma... except Murph didn't wear pinstripes...

By looking at the stats I think thats a fair argument. I would respect your opinion more than others just because you clearly remember both of them playing. 



#87 SportsGuy

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:38 PM

Mattingly and Murphy don't belong in this discussion.

#88 RShack

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:35 PM

Mattingly and Murphy don't belong in this discussion.

 

They were both plenty good enough.

They both played long enough.

But they weren't plenty good enough for long enough.

However, one of them wore pinstripes.


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#89 RShack

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:41 PM

By looking at the stats I think thats a fair argument. I would respect your opinion more than others just because you clearly remember both of them playing. 

 

Their summary numbers make Mattingly look a little bit better.  But if Murphy quit when Mattingly did, that disappears.  

 

There were a couple years where Murphy was an absolutely great all-around player.  He never did learn to lay off the low-and-away slider, even at his best he would look silly about that sometimes.  AJ could do a whole lot worse than to have a career like Murphy's.


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#90 mweb08

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:47 PM

Serious question: how much do you have to watch someone play to use the eye test as a huge factor?

#91 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:49 PM

Weber finally made it. Woot. Things are about to get good. At the very least, long.    :wink:



#92 RShack

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:50 PM

Serious question: how much do you have to watch someone play to use the eye test as a huge factor?

 

I don't think the eye test is real about something like this.

 

I do think that the respect a player earns during his playing years does count.  I wonder if some people really mean that, but they call it the eye test.


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#93 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:52 PM

Serious question: how much do you have to watch someone play to use the eye test as a huge factor?

Enough to know that Fred Mcgriff isnt a HOFer. Seriously, were we watching McGriff every night. Of course not. We saw him enough to know he isnt a HOFer. 



#94 DJ MC

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:57 PM

Enough to know that Fred Mcgriff isnt a HOFer. Seriously, were we watching McGriff every night. Of course not. We saw him enough to know he isnt a HOFer. 

 

In your opinion.


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#95 bnickle

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:57 PM

Ideally, you could go talk to fans of teams who watched borderline  players play every night year in and year out. The problem is that most of those fans and even media members are going to have a bias. 

 

 

We have an example with Mussina. Now, I watched him pitch a lot. He was an elite pitcher in his era. Im also consider myself fairly unbiased. I think Cal Ripken is generally overrated and very overrated by Os fans. Still a HOFer, but overrated. 



#96 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 12:00 AM

In your opinion.


Crime Dog was a very good player. Consistently produced for a number of teams for a good length of time. Excellent career.

I don't know how anyone could have watched him, and considered him a HOF.  He just doesn't belong, unless you are including him because other people that shouldn't have been HOFs gained entrance to Cooperstown.


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#97 DJ MC

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 12:01 AM

For the record, of my "second ten" list I posted, the ones I would vote for without any question are:

 

Kent

E. Martinez

McGwire

Smoltz

Trammell

Walker

 

McGriff, Sosa and Sheffield I would consider, but I could go either way. Mattingly, as I said, I wouldn't vote for in the end.

 

And, of course, there are multiple guys not even on the ballot I would pick if I could.


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#98 DJ MC

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 12:08 AM


Crime Dog was a very good player. Consistently produced for a number of teams for a good length of time. Excellent career.

I don't know how anyone could have watched him, and considered him a HOF.  He just doesn't belong, unless you are including him because other people that shouldn't have been HOFs gained entrance to Cooperstown.

 

People like to use the word "compiler" as a pejorative term. I prefer to look at consistency over a long period of time as an asset for a player. And there are few guys in history as consistent as McGriff. He hit 30 homers a year before the "steroid era", he hit 30 homers a year during the "steroid era". He hit 30 home runs as a 24-year-old with the Blue Jays, and as a 38-year-old with the Cubs. He never got hurt, either.

 

He was always a dangerous hitter, and was usually the best hitter on his team. And, if you're someone who takes them into consideration, he was a great clutch and postseason hitter, too.


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#99 bnickle

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 12:09 AM

For the record, of my "second ten" list I posted, the ones I would vote for without any question are:

 

Kent

E. Martinez

McGwire

Smoltz

Trammell

Walker

 

McGriff, Sosa and Sheffield I would consider, but I could go either way. Mattingly, as I said, I wouldn't vote for in the end.

 

And, of course, there are multiple guys not even on the ballot I would pick if I could.

So, there aren't 10 other guys that should be in and you're certainly not depressed about it. See, now I'm on board. 



#100 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 12:13 AM

People like to use the word "compiler" as a pejorative term. I prefer to look at consistency over a long period of time as an asset for a player. And there are few guys in history as consistent as McGriff. He hit 30 homers a year before the "steroid era", he hit 30 homers a year during the "steroid era". He hit 30 home runs as a 24-year-old with the Blue Jays, and as a 38-year-old with the Cubs. He never got hurt, either.

 

He was always a dangerous hitter, and was usually the best hitter on his team. And, if you're someone who takes them into consideration, he was a great clutch and postseason hitter, too.

 

Right... he had an excellent career that was not HOF worthy.

 

http://www.si.com/ml...t-fred-mcgriff#






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