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Wei-yen Chen


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#101 RShack

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:50 PM

I don't buy it. What you say would be true if people were basing that on a SSS of Oriole P's, but that's not what's going on. It is based on a SSS of only those Oriole P's with Asian names and facial features. That's what makes it prejudice every bit as much as if they were talking about the first couple black ballplayers the O's ever had.


You're assuming quite a bit, and while I tend to have generally low opinions of my fellow humankind, there is only so much we can assume without actively putting words in peoples mouths (or minds, in this case).

I just think that there is a simpler explanation. We don't have experience with players coming over from Japan other than the two-plus years of Uehara. Thus we take our experience with him and project that on a player that came from the same background.

Since the Orioles notably signed a player from New Zealand this offseason, let's say he makes it to the majors and acts in a particularly eccentric fashion, or has acclimation problems. If the Orioles end up with another player from New Zealand, especially in the short-term future, fans and media would project the same issues onto the second player because of their experience with the first.

Well, that's a hypothetical and we can bet either way. Personally, I bet there would way less of that if it was an Aussie or a Kiwi or anybody else that comes from a population that we think of as being of mostly British extraction. But we won't know for sure unless it happens.

Personally, I don't see how you can see a statistical error as being more ingrained in human nature than is prejudice. There's a near infinite set of examples of the later. The former, well, not sure how you can say that. SSS is not exactly an advanced concept, it's just a fancy sounding name for a pretty simple idea. For everybody who thinks a .400 BA in the first 2 weeks of the season means anything, there's about a zillion folks who know better even if they never heard of the idea of SSS. You don't need to be a baseball freak to grok the idea.

As for me putting thoughts in peoples' minds, I don't see where I'm doing that at all. I flat out said that this kind of prejudice is not the hateful kind, its the accidental kind. People don't mean anything by it. But they are nonetheless attributing diff's to people who have obvious racial differences from most Americans. If the players were Dutch or German or Scot or whatever, I bet there would not be more than a hint of it, and certainly not the kind of widespread comment we see folks making about Chen mainly because he looks kinda-sorta like Koji.

 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#102 JeffLong

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:04 AM

As for me putting thoughts in peoples' minds, I don't see where I'm doing that at all. I flat out said that this kind of prejudice is not the hateful kind, its the accidental kind. People don't mean anything by it. But they are nonetheless attributing diff's to people who have obvious racial differences from most Americans. If the players were Dutch or German or Scot or whatever, I bet there would not be more than a hint of it, and certainly not the kind of widespread comment we see folks making about Chen mainly because he looks kinda-sorta like Koji.


It's interesting, a friend and I often have the discussion about the intricacies and associated BS with stereotyping / prejudices / etc. Perfect example, I have a friend that is a black woman who HATES IT when people treat her differently for being a woman and/or black. However, she also expects all women & black people to support her no matter what. This is a perfect example of how nuanced and difficult to understand stereotypes and prejudices can be.

Anyway - with regards to Chen & Koji - I think there are absolutely aspects you can pull out without being prejudiced. For example their demeanor while pitching. However you must also realize that while conclusions about demeanor may be valid for Chen & Koji, they ARE NOT applicable to Darvish despite his being from Japan. This is just one example of how valid yet dangerous applying conclusions to mutliple individuals based on one commonality can be.
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#103 RShack

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:13 PM



As for me putting thoughts in peoples' minds, I don't see where I'm doing that at all. I flat out said that this kind of prejudice is not the hateful kind, its the accidental kind. People don't mean anything by it. But they are nonetheless attributing diff's to people who have obvious racial differences from most Americans. If the players were Dutch or German or Scot or whatever, I bet there would not be more than a hint of it, and certainly not the kind of widespread comment we see folks making about Chen mainly because he looks kinda-sorta like Koji.


It's interesting, a friend and I often have the discussion about the intricacies and associated BS with stereotyping / prejudices / etc. Perfect example, I have a friend that is a black woman who HATES IT when people treat her differently for being a woman and/or black. However, she also expects all women & black people to support her no matter what. This is a perfect example of how nuanced and difficult to understand stereotypes and prejudices can be.

Anyway - with regards to Chen & Koji - I think there are absolutely aspects you can pull out without being prejudiced. For example their demeanor while pitching. However you must also realize that while conclusions about demeanor may be valid for Chen & Koji, they ARE NOT applicable to Darvish despite his being from Japan. This is just one example of how valid yet dangerous applying conclusions to mutliple individuals based on one commonality can be.

When it comes to their demeanor on the mound, well, I figure that's a positive trait and one that's very much influenced by culture. Wilting in the heat/humidity, not so much.

Not sure we even have a word for a positive version of prejudice.

Whatever that word might be, I realized that I have had that towards Jews, in the sense that I pretty much expect Jews to be educated, intelligent and mostly reasonable. I realized this one XMAS... we always go to the daughter's house, and they have a usual batch of friends over for dinner, and one of them is a childhood friend of the daughter who grew up to be a very successful corporate kind of lawyer. Her mother comes along too every year and I really like both of them, and they are Jews. Now, the Jewish lawyer-lady and I have developed a tradition of arguing about what Israel should do. We do it every time and it's become like our little joke, there's nothing unpleasant or mean-spirited about it (although sometimes it makes others kinda nervous). Well, Jimmy Carter wrote a book that had the word "Apartheid" in the title in which he said that Israel is not doing right in setting up different sets of rules in the occupied territories, e.g., the Jews can use some roads that the Palestinians cannot use. She had an absolute fit about that book... but she had no idea what was actually in the book. She was mad at Carter because he was criticizing Israel but she didn't know the substance of what he actually said. And I was flabbergasted. But then, I asked myself why would I be flabbergasted? It's completely normal for people to have strong opinions about political stuff that they really don't know anything about, this was no different, so why was I surprised? Well, I realized it was because I expected her to know what she was talking about. And, I eventually realized that the main reason I expected that is because she's Jewish. So, that means I had some kind of "positive bigotry" in that I expected her to have a certain good trait just because of her ethnic makeup, which is ridiculous but there you are...

So, is there a word for a positive version of prejudice? If there's not, there should be...

 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#104 Oriole85

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 03:07 PM

On the ESPN Baseball Today podcast, I have heard Keith Law describe, several times over the past month, why Mike Trout went so low in the draft despite his talent. His reasoning comes down to two main points:

1) That spring was extraordinarily wet in the east, so scouts found it very difficult to go see him play in southern New Jersey with the constant threat of rain. Thus he ended up scouted less than other prospects.

2) A couple years prior, another athletic prospect, a bat with huge projected power, came out of the South Jersey high schools and went number-nine overall: a player named William A. Rowell. Law believes that his status as a bust raised questions about the quality of that region to produce prospects, and affected later drafts.

So you have two players who really are not that similar, but because of a small sample size in both players and knowledge one become associated with the other to the point of causing a major drop in the draft.

Just want to say with lazy comparison nation out there, if the Orioles had taken Mike Trout instead of Matt Hobgood (not so funny now), how many Rowell comparisons would be made? "The Orioles took another prep position player out of New Jersey." You wouldn't have heard the end of it.
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#105 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:19 AM

Chen has won his last two starts, but after a sensational outing vs. Boston, Chen was just so-so vs. Pittsburgh. In that spacious Turner Field, you would like to see him keep the ball in the stadium. For the year, Chen is 6-2 with a 3.68 era. In his 73.1 ip, he has allowed 73 hits, 8 hr, 24 bb’s, with 55 k’s. His OPS against is .724, and his G/F is 0.67.

If he can help the O's win today vs. the Braves, Baltimore can leave Atlanta with their 4th consecutive series win.

#106 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:16 AM

MLB Dirt: Early Thoughts on the 2012 AL Rookie of the Year race
http://mlbdirt.com/2...-the-year-race/

#107 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:26 AM

He has very little chance at winning ROY.

I am just very interested in how he pitches in the second half.

#108 RShack

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:40 PM

Any time this guy pitches in a loss, you can count on him to say it's all his fault. Doesn't matter how the ump was, doesn't matter how the D was, doesn't matter what the hitters didn't do, it's all his fault. A whiner he's not. He won't even acknowledge any of the iffy things that are beyond his control. I think the reporters should have a contest to see how close anybody can come to getting this guy to make any kind of excuse for anything.

I just wish he was a bit more forthcoming when asked about what he had trouble with in a given game. He never provides any real info, he just says he failed to do what he's supposed to do.

ps: I also wish we could learn something about his command of English when the cameras aren't around. No good reason, just curious, that's all.

 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#109 Mackus

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:01 PM

ps: I also wish we could learn something about his command of English when the cameras aren't around. No good reason, just curious, that's all.

Me too. Koji never spoke any English in public, but you could tell he probably had a fine handle on the language given how much his teammates interacted with him.

I think Wei-Yen may be a bit behind Koji. My only real support for that thesis is that in one of his early starts when he got hit in the gut with a line drive, Buck and Bancells went out and then they, before reaching the mound, also called out his interpreter.

#110 Mackus

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

I'd also find it interesting to know how much Spanish some of the American-born players know. I read once that Barry Larkin actually took classes to learn Spanish when he was in the minors, I always thought that was cool.

#111 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:36 PM

Beyond the Box Score: 5 Rookie Southpaw Surprises
http://www.beyondthe...thpaw-surprises

#112 Chris B

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:32 PM

Wei-Yin Chen had a phenomenal game tonight. He was perfect through 6 1/3, and finished giving up just 2 hits over 7 1/3. The one homer to Casper Wells was on a pitch right down the middle on a full count. I think he just wanted to put the ball in play there. Chen also had a career-high 9 strikeouts.

It was fun to watch him. His curve was great all game.

EDIT: It's a damn shame he couldn't get the W after Strop blew the lead.

#113 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:46 AM

Chen took the hard-luck loss last night. He went 6.2 ip, allowing 4 hits, 3er, 1 hr, 3 bb's, with 5 k's.

He has been pretty consistent this year.

April: 4 starts, 2.22 era
May: 5 starts, 4.20 era
June: 6 starts, 4.34 era
July: 5 starts, 4.06 era

Season: 8-6, 3.82 era, 122.2 ip, 110 hits, 16 hr's, 39 bb's, 93 k's, .695 OPS against, 0.66 G/F

Just a great addition. Have to think the O's are scouting for the next Chen.

#114 Chris B

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 08:06 PM

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Wei cool. Definitely going to this game.

#115 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:35 PM

Chen grabbed his 9th win today, going 5.2 ip, allowing 3 hits, 0 er, 4 bb's, with 12 k's.
He threw 108 pitches, 75 for strikes.

#116 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:43 PM

12 Ks in under 6 innings is very very impressive.

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

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#117 SBTarheel

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:48 PM

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Wei cool. Definitely going to this game.


Totally getting that as a tattoo.
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#118 SammyBirdland

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:17 AM

Guess who has a better ERA than Yu Darvish right now?

3.65, compared to Yu's 4.42.
¡Hasta la vista, pelota!

#119 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:33 AM

RotoGraphs: American League SP Tiers August Update
http://www.fangraphs...-august-update/

Chen is listed in the '6th tier', deemed 'Livin' on the Edge.'

Chen goes into his start tonight:

10-6, 3.42 era, 4.05 FIP, 4.32 xFIP, 135.1 ip, 118 hits, 16 hr's, 44 bb's, 109 k's, .673 OPS against, 0.65 G/F, LD % 20.2%, F-Strike % 57.8%, SwStr% 9.2%.

Since the All-Star break, he is 3-1, with 1.95 era, hitters are batting .174 against him. He has allowed 1 hr in 32.1 innings, with 11 bb's, and 31 k's.

He is not getting enough respect.

#120 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

RotoGraphs: American League SP Tiers August Update
http://www.fangraphs...-august-update/

Chen is listed in the '6th tier', deemed 'Livin' on the Edge.'

Chen goes into his start tonight:

10-6, 3.42 era, 4.05 FIP, 4.32 xFIP, 135.1 ip, 118 hits, 16 hr's, 44 bb's, 109 k's, .673 OPS against, 0.65 G/F, LD % 20.2%, F-Strike % 57.8%, SwStr% 9.2%.

Since the All-Star break, he is 3-1, with 1.95 era, hitters are batting .174 against him. He has allowed 1 hr in 32.1 innings, with 11 bb's, and 31 k's.

He is not getting enough respect.


Yeah, I'm not going to read that whole article right now, but that's just a ridiculous assertion. I know his pure "stuff" isn't flashy, but he is deceptive and while he gives up fly balls, it's weak contact typically. I would have expected Chen to struggle more once the league adjusted to him, instead, as you pointed out, we've seen Chen continually re-adjust and bounce back after rough outings, and it's evidenced by his 1.95 ERA post-AS break.




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