239 replies to this topic

[RShack]

I don't believe the weather will effect him. Taiwan has higher temperatures and is very humid.

My understanding is that he pitched primarily in domes.

I somehow think Japan is half domes, but I could be wrong. Dunno how much he pitched in Taiwan... not sure how the weather might be different between there and Japan...

[RShack]

I saw you post over on the H that you're posting over here. Glad to see you, Shack!

"Thin-skinned." Is all I'm going to say publicly..

That is probably wise if you wish to avoid consequences...

[You Play to Win the Game]

I somehow think Japan is half domes, but I could be wrong. Dunno how much he pitched in Taiwan... not sure how the weather might be different between there and Japan...

I must admit, I'm not 100% on these details either.

[RShack]

I somehow think Japan is half domes, but I could be wrong. Dunno how much he pitched in Taiwan... not sure how the weather might be different between there and Japan...

I must admit, I'm not 100% on these details either.

So, then... we're in agreement that neither one of us knows what we're talking about?

[You Play to Win the Game]

So, then... we're in agreement that neither one of us knows what we're talking about?

Indeed.

In fact, I feel a little convicted about the fact that I tend to assume that Chen will struggle with the heat because Koji did. For all I know, he may like humidity, who the hell knows.

[scOtt]

"Thin-skinned." Is all I'm going to say publicly..

That is probably wise if you wish to avoid consequences...

I have an ever-growing history over there...

[Can_of_corn]

Is Japan the same, because that's where he pitched?

He pitched with the Chunichi Dragons from 2005-2011

I think it is fair to assume he pitched a good bit in his native Taiwan in the 19 years preceding his time in Japan.

[Remember The Alomar]

Even if you ignore the weather/temperature of Taiwan, I never really understood the Koji comparisons. Chen is eight years younger than Koji was when he first arrived in the states and looks to be a much better athlete. His continued success is going to come down to workload/pitching every fifth day rather than humidity tolerance.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Even if you ignore the weather/temperature of Taiwan, I never really understood the Koji comparisons. Chen is eight years younger than Koji was when he first arrived in the states and looks to be a much better athlete. His continued success is going to come down to workload/pitching every fifth day rather than humidity tolerance.

Prejudice.

[Remember The Alomar]

Even if you ignore the weather/temperature of Taiwan, I never really understood the Koji comparisons. Chen is eight years younger than Koji was when he first arrived in the states and looks to be a much better athlete. His continued success is going to come down to workload/pitching every fifth day rather than humidity tolerance.

Prejudice.

Yeah, not to take the conversation in that direction necessarily, but I've been annoyed by similar comparisons between Pie and Avery. Not to say it's exclusively a race thing in any form. Not every 5'10" second baseman deserves a Pedroia comp, ya know?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Yeah, not to take the conversation in that direction necessarily, but I've been annoyed by similar comparisons between Pie and Avery. Not to say it's exclusively a race thing in any form. Not every 5'10" second baseman deserves a Pedroia comp, ya know?

Right. I mean, I know I've been guilty of it, but I'm aware of it and am trying not to go there unless there's actual evidence.

[DJ MC]

Even if you ignore the weather/temperature of Taiwan, I never really understood the Koji comparisons. Chen is eight years younger than Koji was when he first arrived in the states and looks to be a much better athlete. His continued success is going to come down to workload/pitching every fifth day rather than humidity tolerance.

Prejudice.

To a certain extant, that's true. However, it can simply come--like many problems in baseball analysis--from looking at too small of a sample size.

The Orioles did not have a Japanese pitcher before Koji Uehara. He struggled with endurance and health problems during his tenure. When Chen comes along, out of the same environment and to an organization that only had that short experience with a pitcher of that type, it is very easy to project that image on to him as well. Especially when the other Japanese pitcher the Orioles signed at the same time got hurt almost right away.

On the ESPN Baseball Today podcast, I have heard Keith Law describe, several times over the past month, why Mike Trout went so low in the draft despite his talent. His reasoning comes down to two main points:

1) That spring was extraordinarily wet in the east, so scouts found it very difficult to go see him play in southern New Jersey with the constant threat of rain. Thus he ended up scouted less than other prospects.

2) A couple years prior, another athletic prospect, a bat with huge projected power, came out of the South Jersey high schools and went number-nine overall: a player named William A. Rowell. Law believes that his status as a bust raised questions about the quality of that region to produce prospects, and affected later drafts.

So you have two players who really are not that similar, but because of a small sample size in both players and knowledge one become associated with the other to the point of causing a major drop in the draft.

[RShack]

Prejudice.

To a certain extant, that's true. However, it can simply come--like many problems in baseball analysis--from looking at too small of a sample size.

I don't buy it. What you say would be true if people were basing that on a SSS of Oriole P's, but that's not what's going on. It is based on a SSS of only those Oriole P's with Asian names and facial features. That's what makes it prejudice every bit as much as if they were talking about the first couple black ballplayers the O's ever had.

Now, I don't think that in general this is an example of hateful prejudice. There might be a few a-holes who call them slopes or gooks or whatever, but those people are the outliers. In the general case, it's mainly an accident of being thoughtless about it, not a case of intended heartfelt bigotry. In this respect, it is a useful example... because most prejudice is like that: it happens without people realizing it until later. It only becomes heartfelt bigotry when a bunch of people start enjoying it and encouraging each other about it.

The way to stop it is to not tolerate it in social terms. That's a big part of how America's main bigotry (re: black folks) got reduced: for a couple generations it was not tolerated socially, people who were racists knew to keep it to themselves. So, most people grew up without hearing much of it. What they did hear was a social expectation that you're just not supposed to act that way. Sadly, that has changed lately as bigotry is tolerated (and therefore tacitly encouraged) these days by certain political forces, which worries me.

[SportsGuy]

I must admit, I'm not 100% on these details either.

So, then... we're in agreement that neither one of us knows what we're talking about?

I could have told you that before you even started debating!

[RShack]

I could have told you that before you even started debating!

I'm having flashbacks... don't eat the brown acid...

[RichardZ]

Is Japan the same, because that's where he pitched?

He pitched with the Chunichi Dragons from 2005-2011

I think it is fair to assume he pitched a good bit in his native Taiwan in the 19 years preceding his time in Japan.

Sure but we know how he pitched in Japan as a professional against quality competition. Obviously he was good in Taiwan but you can deduce just about ZERO from how the weather affected him there.

[Can_of_corn]

Sure but we know how he pitched in Japan as a professional against quality competition. Obviously he was good in Taiwan but you can deduce just about ZERO from how the weather affected him there.

Was speaking more toward acclimation to the weather conditions. I spent the first 22 years of my life in MD or FL, after spending a year in CA and AZ then two in Germany I had no issues with the humidity I found in Virginia. Chen is used to humidity and should know how to deal with it.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Getting back to last night... Chen really was awesome. He needed just 13 pitches to get through the 1st. In the 3rd, he recorded an important 2nd out, striking out Pedroia, with a 93 mph fastball on the outside black. He struck out McDonald on a nice change-up to begin the 5th. With 2 in scoring position, and 1 out in the 7th; Chen had a fantastic sequence to retire Byrd for the 2nd out. He would end the inning, getting Aviles to pop out. Just outstanding pitching and resolve there not to allow the potential tying and go ahead runners score.

For the night, Chen went 7 innings, allowing 7 hits, 1 er, 0 bb's, with 4 k's. He threw 100 pitches, 69 for strikes. Boston hitters hit 9 grounders against him.

For the season, Chen is now 5-2, 3.49 era. In his 67 ip, he has allowed 65 hits, 7 hr's, 22 bb's, with 51 k's. Hitters have a .713 OPS against, and his G/F is 0.63.

He has been an outstanding addition, and even if he does not stay at quite this level, should remain a solid/reliable starter. Turning 27 next Month, he can be a piece of the puzzle for sometime.

[JeffLong]

Getting back to last night... Chen really was awesome. He needed just 13 pitches to get through the 1st. In the 3rd, he recorded an important 2nd out, striking out Pedroia, with a 93 mph fastball on the outside black. He struck out McDonald on a nice change-up to begin the 5th. With 2 in scoring position, and 1 out in the 7th; Chen had a fantastic sequence to retire Byrd for the 2nd out. He would end the inning, getting Aviles to pop out. Just outstanding pitching and resolve there not to allow the potential tying and go ahead runners score.

For the night, Chen went 7 innings, allowing 7 hits, 1 er, 0 bb's, with 4 k's. He threw 100 pitches, 69 for strikes. Boston hitters hit 9 grounders against him.

For the season, Chen is now 5-2, 3.49 era. In his 67 ip, he has allowed 65 hits, 7 hr's, 22 bb's, with 51 k's. Hitters have a .713 OPS against, and his G/F is 0.63.

He has been an outstanding addition, and even if he does not stay at quite this level, should remain a solid/reliable starter. Turning 27 next Month, he can be a piece of the puzzle for sometime.

This. Had a long discussion at work today about how much better he is when he throws 60% fastballs. We also talked about the idea of Wieters callling pitches from the dugout during his off days ... but then there's the whole mental day off argument - idk.

[DJ MC]

I don't buy it. What you say would be true if people were basing that on a SSS of Oriole P's, but that's not what's going on. It is based on a SSS of only those Oriole P's with Asian names and facial features. That's what makes it prejudice every bit as much as if they were talking about the first couple black ballplayers the O's ever had.

You're assuming quite a bit, and while I tend to have generally low opinions of my fellow humankind, there is only so much we can assume without actively putting words in peoples mouths (or minds, in this case).

I just think that there is a simpler explanation. We don't have experience with players coming over from Japan other than the two-plus years of Uehara. Thus we take our experience with him and project that on a player that came from the same background.

Since the Orioles notably signed a player from New Zealand this offseason, let's say he makes it to the majors and acts in a particularly eccentric fashion, or has acclimation problems. If the Orioles end up with another player from New Zealand, especially in the short-term future, fans and media would project the same issues onto the second player because of their experience with the first.