347 replies to this topic

[hallas]

He had Moss one year. Welker and Edelman weren't world beaters by any stretch. Decent guys , but not special and I'll give you Gronk. Beyond that he made do with average to below average receivers.

 

I think Welker gets downplayed as a receiver more than he deserves.  Edelman I could go either way on, but I'm fine taking him off the "good receiver" list.

 

But even if we just stick to the other two, Moss played for NE for 3 years, not 1.  So between him and Gronk, Brady had a hall of fame receiver for 11 out of 19 years he started for the Pats.  Really 12, but between injuries and his usage being a bit low his rookie year we'll call it 11.

[jamesdean]

I think Welker gets downplayed as a receiver more than he deserves.  Edelman I could go either way on, but I'm fine taking him off the "good receiver" list.

 

But even if we just stick to the other two, Moss played for NE for 3 years, not 1.  So between him and Gronk, Brady had a hall of fame receiver for 11 out of 19 years he started for the Pats.  Really 12, but between injuries and his usage being a bit low his rookie year we'll call it 11.

Brady definitely had talent in his receiving corps but he made them better than they would have been on say, the Ravens.  He made the whole offense better than it probably should have been.  

[hallas]

Brady definitely had talent in his receiving corps but he made them better than they would have been on say, the Ravens.  He made the whole offense better than it probably should have been.  

 

No doubt, I was just pushing back on the narrative that his receiving corps was devoid of talent.  They had talent, and Brady, being a transcendent passer, made sure his receivers made the absolute most of their talent.

[bmore_ken]

I think Welker gets downplayed as a receiver more than he deserves.  Edelman I could go either way on, but I'm fine taking him off the "good receiver" list.

 

But even if we just stick to the other two, Moss played for NE for 3 years, not 1.  So between him and Gronk, Brady had a hall of fame receiver for 11 out of 19 years he started for the Pats.  Really 12, but between injuries and his usage being a bit low his rookie year we'll call it 11.

I didn't say any of them weren't good receivers and I'm not sure why I don't remember Moss in in NE for three years, but I'll give you that one. Gronk and Moss were really his only all star receivers. Edelman and Welker are average receivers with any other qb. And other than Moss and Gronk, Name one other above average receiver he had that put up above average numbers. The bottom line is we all pretty much agree Brady made every player he worked with look better than they would have been with any other qb and that's a guy you pay $50M a year, not Lamar at this point.

[jamesdean]

Speaking of Brady, I've always enjoyed watching this clip where they're discussing attacking Ed Reed.  You would think it was the head coach and offensive coordinator in the meeting.  

 

Tom Brady tells Bill Belichick how to play Ed Reed - YouTube

[PrimeTime]

Speaking of Brady, I've always enjoyed watching this clip where they're discussing attacking Ed Reed. You would think it was the head coach and offensive coordinator in the meeting.

Tom Brady tells Bill Belichick how to play Ed Reed - YouTube

After reading "Spygate: The Untold Story" and understanding how the Pats operate on GameDay, it makes perfect sense that they were terrified of Ed Reed. Alot of their offensive plays were called to counter the defensive play that had been deciphered. Since Ed Reed would freelance and vacate his assignment with regularity, it was difficult for the Pats to know what they needed to do.

FWIW, the information in the Spygate good is quite compelling. They have an MIT professor that had never watched American football break down some NE statistical anomalies and what they were accomplishing was so far outside of the standard deviation that he concluded there must be an outside force impacting the games. Also, a Vegas wise guy talked about how the Pats were significantly better against the spread than anyone else in the NFL from 2001-2011.

[Slidemaster]

After reading "Spygate: The Untold Story" and understanding how the Pats operate on GameDay, it makes perfect sense that they were terrified of Ed Reed. Alot of their offensive plays were called to counter the defensive play that had been deciphered. Since Ed Reed would freelance and vacate his assignment with regularity, it was difficult for the Pats to know what they needed to do.

FWIW, the information in the Spygate good is quite compelling. They have an MIT professor that had never watched American football break down some NE statistical anomalies and what they were accomplishing was so far outside of the standard deviation that he concluded there must be an outside force impacting the games. Also, a Vegas wise guy talked about how the Pats were significantly better against the spread than anyone else in the NFL from 2001-2011.

Knowing they cheated regularly surprises me zero percent.

Didn't teams start leaving fake playbooks around for them to find, or am I making that up?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Knowing they cheated regularly surprises me zero percent.

Didn't teams start leaving fake playbooks around for them to find, or am I making that up?

I remember reading something similar.

[Ravens2006]

The best game I think Lamar has ever played was 2019 at the Rams. He only threw 20 times, completed 75% with 5 TDs. His passes were on time and on target, hitting everything in stride. He ran 8 more for almost 100 yards.

What did the backs do? RBs ALSO had 37 carries.

37 rush attempts by not Lamar, 28 times Lamar threw or ran, and it was insanely effective.

It's on the staff to establish a legitimate consistent running game. The offense is so much more efficient when Lamar isn't asked to be the primary player on 67 to 75% of offensive snaps.

[jamesdean]

The best game I think Lamar has ever played was 2019 at the Rams. He only threw 20 times, completed 75% with 5 TDs. His passes were on time and on target, hitting everything in stride. He ran 8 more for almost 100 yards.
What did the backs do? RBs ALSO had 37 carries.
37 rush attempts by not Lamar, 28 times Lamar threw or ran, and it was insanely effective.
It's on the staff to establish a legitimate consistent running game. The offense is so much more efficient when Lamar isn't asked to be the primary player on 67 to 75% of offensive snaps.

Music to my ears but good luck ever seeing a repeat of that.

[PrimeTime]

Putting emotions and my feelings for Lamar aside, we're now looking at an athletic QB with  lower body injury late in season for the 2nd year in a row. Based on what we've seen from Jackson in his career thus far, can we realistically dedicate 45-50 million a year to him? Even with a new system in place, the salary cap constraints will make it difficult to bring in top skill position talent, which we all agree Lamar should have. 

 

Maybe it's recency bias or maybe I'm just reeling from Lamar going down but 2019 was three years ago. There have been spectacular highs in the interceding games but the lows have been pretty rough. And this is not to say that Lamar bears all of the blame by any stretch. The roster is lacking, the system is lacking as well and injuries to important players have all been factors. With that said, those other things aren't in line to be allocated roughly 20% of the salary cap for the next 5 years. 

 

I sincerely don't know where the Ravens go from here. 

[makoman]

Putting emotions and my feelings for Lamar aside, we're now looking at an athletic QB with  lower body injury late in season for the 2nd year in a row. Based on what we've seen from Jackson in his career thus far, can we realistically dedicate 45-50 million a year to him? Even with a new system in place, the salary cap constraints will make it difficult to bring in top skill position talent, which we all agree Lamar should have. 

 

Maybe it's recency bias or maybe I'm just reeling from Lamar going down but 2019 was three years ago. There have been spectacular highs in the interceding games but the lows have been pretty rough. And this is not to say that Lamar bears all of the blame by any stretch. The roster is lacking, the system is lacking as well and injuries to important players have all been factors. With that said, those other things aren't in line to be allocated roughly 20% of the salary cap for the next 5 years. 

 

I sincerely don't know where the Ravens go from here. 

I'm leaning toward I want to fire Roman (or let him go to Stanford, whatever) and see what Lamar does on the tag with a new OC.

 

Not sure if that's feasible or not on either side, and that's a big risk that maybe you can't tag and trade him the following year if that's the direction you want to take. It can change, but at this point the exclusive tag would be like $55M in 2024.

 

Or maybe his demands have dropped from having a banged up and less effective year.

[Ravens2006]

Putting emotions and my feelings for Lamar aside, we're now looking at an athletic QB with  lower body injury late in season for the 2nd year in a row. Based on what we've seen from Jackson in his career thus far, can we realistically dedicate 45-50 million a year to him? Even with a new system in place, the salary cap constraints will make it difficult to bring in top skill position talent, which we all agree Lamar should have. 

 

Maybe it's recency bias or maybe I'm just reeling from Lamar going down but 2019 was three years ago. There have been spectacular highs in the interceding games but the lows have been pretty rough. And this is not to say that Lamar bears all of the blame by any stretch. The roster is lacking, the system is lacking as well and injuries to important players have all been factors. With that said, those other things aren't in line to be allocated roughly 20% of the salary cap for the next 5 years. 

 

I sincerely don't know where the Ravens go from here. 

 

There are always lots of moving parts to consider.  I don't buy in to Huntley as being a guy that can frequently be "the guy" to help put them over the top / be the difference maker in a game.  Hell, he did it last week in JAX and the defense gave it back in the last two minutes.  If you take away two defensive secondary penalties and 30 yards of free grass yesterday, I don't think the Ravens score on the final drive.  But they did, even with the completion percentages Huntley wasn't impressive before the improvised throw to Drake that got them to the 2.

 

Lamar overall hides two things to my eyes... 1) when Stanley is out and the O line is shuffled around, he masks a lot of issues in pass protection that I think very few other QBs would succeed through, and 2) the OC's inability to scheme and stick to an offensive game plan that maximizes his roster's potential.  

 

Finding another Lamar isn't easy, obviously.  If they change overall skill-set at the position, the O line probably needs more attention again.  Anyone that would be "proven" is going to come at a pretty big cost anyway (maybe not Lamar numbers, but still a big number).  Anyone that's unproven and we're basically back in the "hope we find a QB" line... which can either be a quick exit to years of bliss, or a decade or more of waiting for the right ticket to hit.

 

What would be the safest bet to jump start / revitalize the offense would be a change in the OC booth and a new mind... a fresh take on things.  Someone who has also orchestrated a half decent offense WITHOUT a very mobile QB in the past (Roman had Tyrod in Buffalo, Kaepernick in SF, and Lamar here; he's never really spent MUCH time running an offense that didn't have a QB who could bail them out when a play breaks down a few times each game). 

[Biggsy]

I'm leaning toward I want to fire Roman (or let him go to Stanford, whatever) and see what Lamar does on the tag with a new OC.

Not sure if that's feasible or not on either side, and that's a big risk that maybe you can't tag and trade him the following year if that's the direction you want to take. It can change, but at this point the exclusive tag would be like $55M in 2024.

Or maybe his demands have dropped from having a banged up and less effective year.

Doubtful his demands have changed.

Ravens will have a tough decision. I personally would resign Lamar and move forward with him. He's a winner. He's a difference maker. He has the ability to dominate a game, or as proven on 2019, a full season. And he's still only 25. People act like he's had a ton of weapons and support around him the past few years. He's always had Andrews and one reciever. For the last 2 seasons he's had mediocre RB's the majority of the time. So, to me, giving Lamar a big chunk doesn't change much on the offensive side for me. He's proven he can win games with limited help on his side of the ball already.

Mahomes and Allen both have massive contracts. Their front offices have still been able to put great overall teams together around their big contracts. But I guess the Ravens can't do that for some reason ? Is that the fear?

[Slidemaster]

Doubtful his demands have changed.

Ravens will have a tough decision. I personally would resign Lamar and move forward with him. He's a winner. He's a difference maker. He has the ability to dominate a game, or as proven on 2019, a full season. And he's still only 25. People act like he's had a ton of weapons and support around him the past few years. He's always had Andrews and one reciever. For the last 2 seasons he's had mediocre RB's the majority of the time. So, to me, giving Lamar a big chunk doesn't change much on the offensive side for me. He's proven he can win games with limited help on his side of the ball already.

Mahomes and Allen both have massive contracts. Their front offices have still been able to put great overall teams together around their big contracts. But I guess the Ravens can't do that for some reason ? Is that the fear?

They haven't done it with him on a rookie deal. How will they do it on a 50 per year deal?

I also think it's very reasonable to state that Mahomes and Allen do more to elevate their receivers/weapons than Lamar does. Hollywood wanted out because he wasn't getting enough touches. Do you think that would happen in Buffalo or KC?

I just don't see how they can offer him what he wants.

I would sign him to a 40 mil per year guaranteed deal. I wouldn't go any higher than that.

[PrimeTime]

There are always lots of moving parts to consider.  I don't buy in to Huntley as being a guy that can frequently be "the guy" to help put them over the top / be the difference maker in a game.  Hell, he did it last week in JAX and the defense gave it back in the last two minutes.  If you take away two defensive secondary penalties and 30 yards of free grass yesterday, I don't think the Ravens score on the final drive.  But they did, even with the completion percentages Huntley wasn't impressive before the improvised throw to Drake that got them to the 2.

 

Lamar overall hides two things to my eyes... 1) when Stanley is out and the O line is shuffled around, he masks a lot of issues in pass protection that I think very few other QBs would succeed through, and 2) the OC's inability to scheme and stick to an offensive game plan that maximizes his roster's potential.  

 

Finding another Lamar isn't easy, obviously.  If they change overall skill-set at the position, the O line probably needs more attention again.  Anyone that would be "proven" is going to come at a pretty big cost anyway (maybe not Lamar numbers, but still a big number).  Anyone that's unproven and we're basically back in the "hope we find a QB" line... which can either be a quick exit to years of bliss, or a decade or more of waiting for the right ticket to hit.

 

What would be the safest bet to jump start / revitalize the offense would be a change in the OC booth and a new mind... a fresh take on things.  Someone who has also orchestrated a half decent offense WITHOUT a very mobile QB in the past (Roman had Tyrod in Buffalo, Kaepernick in SF, and Lamar here; he's never really spent MUCH time running an offense that didn't have a QB who could bail them out when a play breaks down a few times each game). 

 

From the moment we drafter Lamar, I thought we had a 3-5 year window where Jackson would be the best athlete on the field and we could take advantage of that. Beyond his rookie deal, I was very concerned about how he would progress as a passer because it's only natural that athleticism and speed wanes as you age. 

 

I know it's a tall task to find a QB in the draft and bringing in a veteran will carry a high cost. I'm just feeling like the entire franchise is hanging in limbo regarding the Lamar situation. Jackson values himself at a certain number, the organization has a different number in mind. If the Ravens commit to Jackson for the next 5 years the system absolutely needs to change at a minimum.

 

Regarding Mahomes and Allen, the Chiefs move Tyreek Hill to save money and are still succeeding with the likes of Valdez-Scandling and Smith-Schuster; not exactly world beaters. Travis Kelce is the straw that stirs the drink but the Chiefs do struggle to run the ball consistenly. With regards to the Bills, outside of Diggs, their skill players are mostly not on big deals. TE Dawson Knox has a team friendly deal that allows him to be cut after next year with big savings. Gabe Davis is on his rookie deal and Isiah McKenzie is on a cheap deal. Buffalo also struggles to run the ball outside of Josh Allen. 

[Biggsy]

They haven't done it with him on a rookie deal. How will they do it on a 50 per year deal?

I also think it's very reasonable to state that Mahomes and Allen do more to elevate their receivers/weapons than Lamar does. Hollywood wanted out because he wasn't getting enough touches. Do you think that would happen in Buffalo or KC?

I just don't see how they can offer him what he wants.

I would sign him to a 40 mil per year guaranteed deal. I wouldn't go any higher than that.

Mahomes yes. Allen on the other hand didn't turn the corner until he was given Diggs.

Also, Brown didn't want out because he didn't get enough touches. He wanted out due to the style of offense we played. Guy got like 140+ targets, he wasn't getting more than that anywhere else. He didn't like the short routes, and the blocking. And at his size, I don't blame him.

And we haven't given Lamar a ton of weapons on his rookie deal, you're right. But he still won a lot of games. Why would that change all of a sudden?

[PrimeTime]

Mahomes yes. Allen on the other hand didn't turn the corner until he was given Diggs.

Also, Brown didn't want out because he didn't get enough touches. He wanted out due to the style of offense we played. Guy got like 140+ targets, he wasn't getting more than that anywhere else. He didn't like the short routes, and the blocking. And at his size, I don't blame him.

And we haven't given Lamar a ton of weapons on his rookie deal, you're right. But he still won a lot of games. Why would that change all of a sudden?

 

It would change because a 27, 28 year old Lamar with NFL miles on his body isn't going to be able to make something out of nothing with his legs as often. How many drives has he extended with a 3rd down scramble? How many negative plays has he avoided with his shiftiness? The fact is that those things aren't going to improve as he ages. Therefore, by default, his skills as a passer must improve. Without cleaning up his mechanics and/or putting better talent around him, where does that improvement come from?

[You Play to Win the Game]

It would change because a 27, 28 year old Lamar with NFL miles on his body isn't going to be able to make something out of nothing with his legs as often. How many drives has he extended with a 3rd down scramble? How many negative plays has he avoided with his shiftiness? The fact is that those things aren't going to improve as he ages. Therefore, by default, his skills as a passer must improve. Without cleaning up his mechanics and/or putting better talent around him, where does that improvement come from?

We’ll have less cap space too.

[Slidemaster]

It would change because a 27, 28 year old Lamar with NFL miles on his body isn't going to be able to make something out of nothing with his legs as often. How many drives has he extended with a 3rd down scramble? How many negative plays has he avoided with his shiftiness? The fact is that those things aren't going to improve as he ages. Therefore, by default, his skills as a passer must improve. Without cleaning up his mechanics and/or putting better talent around him, where does that improvement come from?

It's also not like lower body injuries (or any injuries) get less likely with age, and he's had his second in as many years.