2551 replies to this topic

[weird-O]

Im also tired of hearing about ownership.

1. Its not Pete anymore

2. The best thing Ive heard in a long time was the news that came out that Elias had demands to be our GM and John met them. There is absolute reason to believe he has supported Elias. It also makes me speculate that Elias has always had the ability to lower payroll and bank it for future seasons when we are trying to contend.


3. In regards to this offseason, Elias is still talking the talk. You can tell hes excited to try and make this team better. If he had any reason to believe ownership was going to pull the rug out from under him he wouldnt be talking the way he has of late.

Can you share a link o something? It's not that I don't believe you. It's that I think that was how the Elias negotiations played out as well. But I only suspect that. I'd love to read/hear someone share their insider knowledge on that whole situation.  

[Mike in STL]

To sum up, he did what every previous O's GM did. He talked about getting better.

Yeah but Elias the would flat out say “not ready yet” and the like. Other GMs are like “happy with where we are”.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Can you share a link o something? It's not that I don't believe you. It's that I think that was how the Elias negotiations played out as well. But I only suspect that. I'd love to read/hear someone share their insider knowledge on that whole situation.  

 

It's part of the records in the family court spat.

 

https://www.thebalti...7MMLZLB4L22WM4/

 

In November 2018, the Orioles hired a new general manager, Mike Elias. According to court records, Elias was pursued aggressively by the San Francisco Giants, but he accepted a job with the Orioles on condition that he would report to John only.

“Why? Because Elias and John shared a vision for the club wherein the owners of the team would take a step back, and the General Manager would be given the freedom to reimagine and rebuild the baseball side of the organization,” Georgia’s attorneys wrote. “This understanding was crucial to Elias’s decision to come to the Orioles — a club long plagued by anti-organizational culture — so much so that John, with Georgia’s approval, codified these delegated rights in Elias’s employment contract.”

[weird-O]

It's part of the records in the family court spat.

 

https://www.thebalti...7MMLZLB4L22WM4/

 

You can't get any stronger confirmation than that. Thanks for sharing

[dude]

Signing Turner, trading for a Burnes/Bieber/Woodruf, and signing a Bassit type would be the chef's kiss offseason. Certainly not expecting that but the odds are higher than 0.0%.

 

Here's the issue nobody can get around.  If the Orioles wanted to be aggressive, they could have added Juan Soto, Luis Castillo and Patrick Corbin to build up a 2022 (surprising) playoff run and position themselves great for the 2023 and 2024 season.  Essentially they'd already be done and Juan Soto is hitting 3rd.  Nothing is different between now and a couple months ago.

 

All we heard going into last season was about their payroll flexibility and how the market aligned with their needs and they ran away from it as hard as they could.

 

Maybe this time Lucy will let Charlie kick the football.

 

I commented on guys like Woodruff before everyone else started and I think something like that is reasonable.  Adding Woodruff and Manaea would be strong moves to raise the floor for 2023.  I think you can forget the 30+M players.  Improve b/uC and figure out your Leadership and that's probably the best they are doing. 

 

I don't actually have any issues with that, but it's not some 90+ win playoff lock and you never had to lose to get there.  Period.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Here's the issue nobody can get around.  If the Orioles wanted to be aggressive, they could have added Juan Soto, Luis Castillo and Patrick Corbin to build up a 2022 (surprising) playoff run and position themselves great for the 2023 and 2024 season.  Essentially they'd already be done and Juan Soto is hitting 3rd.  Nothing is different between now and a couple months ago.

 

All we heard going into last season was about their payroll flexibility and how the market aligned with their needs and they ran away from it as hard as they could.

 

Maybe this time Lucy will let Charlie kick the football.

 

I commented on guys like Woodruff before everyone else started and I think something like that is reasonable.  Adding Woodruff and Manaea would be strong moves to raise the floor for 2023.  I think you can forget the 30+M players.  Improve b/uC and figure out your Leadership and that's probably the best they are doing. 

 

I don't actually have any issues with that, but it's not some 90+ win playoff lock and you never had to lose to get there.  Period.

F it I feel like playing along today. First, assuming you got these deals done. What did we give up to get Castillo, Soto, and Corbin?? Cant wait to hear how much value Corbin took away from Soto.

 

Also what does this bring the payroll to today. Assuming no trades. All our arb eligible guys are still here

[makoman]

The Lerners were not giving their biggest superstar to their MASN adversary.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The Lerners were not giving their biggest superstar to their MASN adversary.

And other reasons too but I want to play along 

[dude]

I've discussed both those trades several times and whatever.  Other teams get to choose.  The Orioles could have had Chapman and Olson....not even trying.  Could have signed anyone...not even a sniff.  Could have AT LEAST TRIED at the deadline (in the Playoff hunt) and they chose to go backwards without a hint they were trying to do anything.

 

30 seconds after they can't do anything for 2022...it's "liftoff".  Why wasn't it liftoff 30 seconds earlier?

 

3. In regards to this offseason, Elias is still talking the talk. You can tell hes excited to try and make this team better. If he had any reason to believe ownership was going to pull the rug out from under him he wouldn't be talking the way he has of late.

 

There is another possible answer to this comment.  No doubt he's putting himself and the Team out there.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The Lerners were not giving their biggest superstar to their MASN adversary.

Hes obviously not going to play along but in addition to this issue I dont think the Nationals cared one bit about adding Corbin to a Soto deal. THey wanted to maximize their return onSoto. SO could the Os have beat the Padres. Yeah probably but it would have taken emptying a huge chunk of the top of our farm system. And I love Soto. i think hes the best young offensive player in baseball but it would have been unwise to empty the chamber for 2 years of him. Again, assuming Lerner and Rizzo would have dealt with us and I tend to agree with you that they wouldn't unless we foolishly overpaid the next best offer

[dude]

The Lerners were not giving their biggest superstar to their MASN adversary.

 

....because a Team that is about to sell and go into rebuilding would have no interest in relieving themselves of their 2nd worst contract on the books.

 

They are about to depart the baseball landscape.  

 

Again, you're still allowed to try, right?

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Corbin had 65- 70 mil left last July. Its not nothing but its not significant either. Not enough to have it hamper a Soto return

[TwentyThirtyFive]

....because a Team that is about to sell and go into rebuilding would have no interest in relieving themselves of their 2nd worst contract on the books.

They are about to depart the baseball landscape.

Again, you're still allowed to try, right?

So are we trying or are we acting like its a fact we could have had Soto. Thats essentially what you said in your first post

[Mackus]

I think we could've put together a package that beat what SD offered (it would 100% had to have included Henderson, though) but I can't reconcile that its overwhelmingly likely that Angelos & Lerner would refuse to do this level of massive business together.  So its a reasonable trade to consider in a "what I would've done" mindset but it becomes unreasonable from an "Elias could've done this" perspective because of the headbutting and ill will between these two owners.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think we could've put together a package that beat what SD offered (it would 100% had to have included Henderson, though) but I can't reconcile that its overwhelmingly likely that Angelos & Lerner would refuse to do this level of massive business together. So its a reasonable trade to consider in a "what I would've done" mindset but it becomes unreasonable from an "Elias could've done this" perspective because of the headbutting and ill will between these two owners.

Henderson plus much more

[JeremyStrain]

Hes obviously not going to play along but in addition to this issue I dont think the Nationals cared one bit about adding Corbin to a Soto deal. THey wanted to maximize their return onSoto. SO could the Os have beat the Padres. Yeah probably but it would have taken emptying a huge chunk of the top of our farm system. And I love Soto. i think hes the best young offensive player in baseball but it would have been unwise to empty the chamber for 2 years of him. Again, assuming Lerner and Rizzo would have dealt with us and I tend to agree with you that they wouldn't unless we foolishly overpaid the next best offer

I actually think it was more about clearing liabilities to help with a pending sale. People underestimate how much the liability side of the Balance Sheet impacts large deals like this.

 

I know people want to act like it's all business and the silly grudges and things we think up on the internet wouldn't get in the way, at the right price, but It's also not 100% true. Some people are petty and hold grudges, and will just flat out not deal with some people. I've had it said TO me before "you'd like to think in a vacuum you just raise the price and make sure you bleed them with the move when you have that kind of grudge, but in the end, the risk of the unknown part coming back to bite you in hindsight isn't worth the risk, it's why you see a lot of hesitation with dealing within the division. It happens, so if it's a team in the other league it sucks, but life goes on, but if it happens in your backyard and you have to face them 25 times a year? That's the stuff of nightmares, and ownership tends to take those very poorly."

 

No one wants to be that guy who thought he was winning a deal turn out that the prospects he was completely fine giving up turn into major superstars, and the throw in parts end up as all stars. Those are the kinds of things that keep GMs up at night. It's why you see the other side of the equation where people hold on to prospects too long, kind of FOMO.

[bmore_ken]

I think Trea wants to be where the money is, and the O's will not outspend Philly.

That's going to be true of most free agents when it comes to the O's.

[Mackus]

Henderson plus much more

I was saying Henderson, Hall and Hays at the time and thought it was a competitive idea. Henderson has probably gone up in prestige since then. Hall has treaded water at best and Hays gone backwards.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Tyler Anderson and Rizzo both gone already. Two guys I had interest in signing.

[Mackus]

Joc Pederson, too. Accepted Qualifying Offer.