540 replies to this topic

[You Play to Win the Game]

The only issue with wrestling is the weight cutting, which is not a healthy process unless they've changed some things.

Very intense. I agree.

[Mackus]

Apparently the Kenosha PD had their rules and regs on the internet.

https://www.google.c...d=1598831754576

Here are the lethal force requirements:


VII. USE OF DEADLY FORCE
A. Deadly force is force that is intended to or likely to cause death. Whenever safety
permits, police officers should identify themselves and state their intent to shoot prior to
using a firearm. Officers are to discharge their weapons to stop an assailant from
completing a potentially deadly act as described. Officers should shoot to stop the threat
and to minimize danger to innocent bystanders.
An officer may use deadly force:
1. As a last resort in the defense of oneself, when there is reasonable cause to believe
that the officer is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.
2. As a last resort in the defense of another person, whom the officer has reasonable
cause to believe is being unlawfully attacked and is in imminent danger of death or
great bodily harm.
3. As a last resort to prevent escape of a suspect, where the officer has probable cause
to believe that the person to be arrested has used deadly force in the commission of a
felony, and the officer reasonably believes there is no other way to make the arrest or
retain custody of the person once arrested, or the person to be arrested can
reasonably be thought to be intent on endangering human life or upon inflicting
serious bodily harm. In any event, the officer should not use deadly force unless
he/ she believes it is necessary and then only as a last resort.

[Mackus]

So this is all about whether the guy reaching into the car or getting into the car, which he said has a knife in it, constitutes a direct threat to the officers life. The officer cannot use deadly force "because he might become a threat". It has to be an imminent threat.

I think it's hard to stab somebody with your back to them.

If he made a sudden movement to turn around, I'd be ok with the shoot. But he didn't. He was moving slowly. Officer shot him as he was reaching or getting into the car. I don't think he had the knife yet, but even if he did, back turned and moving slowly.

[Flosman]

 
4) I think you are talking about the riot incident here.... I did not see the whole situation .... What I did the shooter was walking toward he police with the hanging on a sling around his neck and his hands raised high. If he had the rifle pointed at the police I am confident he is shot and killed
 
********IMO no one should be able to carry without a special permit for specific purposes. Walking the streets around protesters is not a reason. Also this person should and probably will spend the rest of his life in jail.

Look I wish people would find the facts before making judgments like this. The kid should not spend a day prison the evidence is out there for anyone to see. Being as though he was shooting white folks please don't call me racist. This story is being used to manipulate and divide people. Heck he did not even fire the first shot.

Btw I have said the shoot was bad on Blake not for the reason most think about the treat level. The cop did not follow the deadly force policy. I think his actions show he panicked which brings his assessment of the threat situation into question.

Btw I have been told by someone I trust that blake was in fact not shot 7 times, almost impossible to believe the officer may have missed with a couple shots. If true he should not have ever been given a gun.

As for your special permit that is prevented by the constitution. Thank goodness because since the citizen shooting there has been only peaceful protesters. I myself am very glad I can protect me and my family. The government here sure refused to.

[Mike in STL]

So this is all about whether the guy reaching into the car or getting into the car, which he said has a knife in it, constitutes a direct threat to the officers life. The officer cannot use deadly force "because he might become a threat". It has to be an imminent threat.

I think it's hard to stab somebody with your back to them.

If he made a sudden movement to turn around, I'd be ok with the shoot. But he didn't. He was moving slowly. Officer shot him as he was reaching or getting into the car. I don't think he had the knife yet, but even if he did, back turned and moving slowly.

Yep. The back to them is the key.

Also noticed that they said “last resort” like 37 times in their policy. It wasn’t their last resort. So many other ways to keep him from the car door.

[The Epic]

(BTW there's videos floating around social media of Rittenhouse sucker punching a woman a couple of weeks before the incident. Seems...pretty on-brand.

 

But he will be convicted of something. Whether he goes down for the big stuff is yet to be seen...I mean, I'm aware of how the justice system works for certain people...but I think the misdemeanor is pretty slam dunky.)

[The Epic]

I have no idea how you equate what I wrote with that. None.

 

So I am done with this thread. 

 

"If you dress better, you won't get raped."

 

"If you comply, you won't get brutalized."

 

It's flipping the blame away from the people that deserve the blame. Furthermore, it's just simply untrue; bad people find a reason to do bad things.

 

"Don't give them a reason" is sound advice, but that doesn't solve the structural problem. It never will. Rapists should not be rapists. We need to fix that. Cops should not be brutalizing people. We need to fix that.

[russsnyder]

"If you dress better, you won't get raped."

"If you comply, you won't get brutalized."

It's flipping the blame away from the people that deserve the blame. Furthermore, it's just simply untrue; bad people find a reason to do bad things.

"Don't give them a reason" is sound advice, but that doesn't solve the structural problem. It never will. Rapists should not be rapists. We need to fix that. Cops should not be brutalizing people. We need to fix that.

Ok. How do you " fix" rapists?

Further, I don't believe that violence in the streets or defunding or eliminating the police are going to address the brutality issue either.

Perhaps players boycotting games will raise awareness to the policing issue. I really think some players should leave their respective bubbles and/or teams and go to Kenosha to see what is actually happening. They can choose to join the protests and talk to the various people that are involved. ( Protestors, business owners, police, & local officials)

[KWebz]

I mean, addressing toxic masculinity actually could go a long way in fixing both...

[Mike in STL]

Ok. How do you " fix" rapists?

Further, I don't believe that violence in the streets or defunding or eliminating the police are going to address the brutality issue either.

Perhaps players boycotting games will raise awareness to the policing issue. I really think some players should leave their respective bubbles and/or teams and go to Kenosha to see what is actually happening. They can choose to join the protests and talk to the various people that are involved. ( Protestors, business owners, police, & local officials)

I think the players are trying to get their owner’s attention. Many of them are billionaires, white, and are well connected to people who have the ability to make real change. Some are probably in the President’s contact list in his personal cell phone.

Sure, LeBron James can go to Kenosha and be a nice distraction for the people for a couple days. He can tweet all he wants but the message won’t get to those who need to hear it. But Jeanie Buss as Lakers owner, probably in the top 5-10 most valuable sport franchises in the world, can set up meetings with a bunch of California congress people, senators, police commissioners, and start the discussion with those who can make the actual change. She can reach out to probably every owner in all four major sports and they can collaborate to make similar efforts in their states. Bring all the messages from their players to those people who make the rules we live under, rather than Joe Schmoe Twitter follower.

[Old Man]

"If you dress better, you won't get raped."

 

"If you comply, you won't get brutalized."

 

It's flipping the blame away from the people that deserve the blame. Furthermore, it's just simply untrue; bad people find a reason to do bad things.

 

"Don't give them a reason" is sound advice, but that doesn't solve the structural problem. It never will. Rapists should not be rapists. We need to fix that. Cops should not be brutalizing people. We need to fix that.

I will not and never condone bad cops. That part of the process does need fixing.

 

But, at some point, people need to comply with the cop's order. right or wrong, at that moment in time, the cop has the authority to tell you to do something. Not every cop out there is bad.

 

Just like week, the MD State Trooper was dragged down the road hanging onto the car, because the drunk wouldnt follow orders.

 

We could go back and forth on this for years, there are way too many stories on both sides of this.

[Mackus]

I will not and never condone bad cops. That part of the process does need fixing.

 

But, at some point, people need to comply with the cop's order. right or wrong, at that moment in time, the cop has the authority to tell you to do something. Not every cop out there is bad.

 

Just like week, the MD State Trooper was dragged down the road hanging onto the car, because the drunk wouldnt follow orders.

 

We could go back and forth on this for years, there are way too many stories on both sides of this.

 

I'm completely on board with the argument that people should comply.  The problem is that the reaction to non-compliance simply needs to be applied fairly.  Otherwise...that buzzword again...it's a clear example of systemic racism.  The penalties can't (or more accurately, shouldn't) be dependent on your skin color.  It's exactly like cocaine sentencing, it was clearly racism that led to crack cocaine possession having an order of magnitude or more longer prison sentences than powder cocaine.  That is clear an inarguable systemic racism.  And so is this, IMO.

 

I don't think the reaction to non-complaince should be deadly force.  But if it is, I guess that's fine, just apply it fairly.  I keep saying it, and I'm only barely joking.  Maybe cops should start shooting more non-compliant white people.  

[The Epic]

Ok. How do you " fix" rapists?

Further, I don't believe that violence in the streets or defunding or eliminating the police are going to address the brutality issue either.

Perhaps players boycotting games will raise awareness to the policing issue. I really think some players should leave their respective bubbles and/or teams and go to Kenosha to see what is actually happening. They can choose to join the protests and talk to the various people that are involved. ( Protestors, business owners, police, & local officials)

 

Re: rapists, that's a loaded question, and I don't want to go too far into the weeds. Generally, addressing how we get to that point, and acting accordingly, is a good place to start. I'm not speaking on anybody's behalf, but I think that the #MeToo movement led to a large section of people to realize that rape/harassment isn't just the Bill Cosby stuff and the R Kelly stuff. This isn't just "boys will be boys"...some crap is unacceptable and we should call it out BEFORE someone thinks that going even further is acceptable. 

 

"Boys will be boys" is essentially "that's just how cops are"

 

Also, you'd be surprised at how many times violence or destruction of property has solved problems in America's history, for good or bad.

[mweb08]

Ok. How do you " fix" rapists?

Further, I don't believe that violence in the streets or defunding or eliminating the police are going to address the brutality issue either.

Perhaps players boycotting games will raise awareness to the policing issue. I really think some players should leave their respective bubbles and/or teams and go to Kenosha to see what is actually happening. They can choose to join the protests and talk to the various people that are involved. ( Protestors, business owners, police, & local officials)

 

Many NBA players participated in protests that were sparked by the murder of George Floyd.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I think I've said this here before, but I can't help thinking of a clip I saw of Sean Hannity, who was baffled that people couldn't safely follow directions after a traffic stop.  His trick, he said, was to just immediately get out of his car, and if he was carrying a gun, he would lift up his shirt so the officers could see it, and then announce that he had a gun.  Worked for him every time, why didn't everyone just do it that way...

[Mackus]

I think I've said this here before, but I can't help thinking of a clip I saw of Sean Hannity, who was baffled that people couldn't safely follow directions after a traffic stop.  His trick, he said, was to just immediately get out of his car, and if he was carrying a gun, he would lift up his shirt so the officers could see it, and then announce that he had a gun.  Worked for him every time, why didn't everyone just do it that way...

 

I wasn't thinking of making a specific list of non-compliant white people that maybe police should start shooting.

[Old Man]

I think I've said this here before, but I can't help thinking of a clip I saw of Sean Hannity, who was baffled that people couldn't safely follow directions after a traffic stop.  His trick, he said, was to just immediately get out of his car, and if he was carrying a gun, he would lift up his shirt so the officers could see it, and then announce that he had a gun.  Worked for him every time, why didn't everyone just do it that way...

they teach you in gun safe classes, if you are concealed carrying, and you are pulled over. You calmly announce to the patrol office. I am carrying, and its located XXXXXXXX, would you like me to hand it to you, or you get it yourself?

[The Epic]

they teach you in gun safe classes, if you are concealed carrying, and you are pulled over. You calmly announce to the patrol office. I am carrying, and its located XXXXXXXX, would you like me to hand it to you, or you get it yourself?

 

https://en.wikipedia...hilando_Castile

[BobPhelan]

they teach you in gun safe classes, if you are concealed carrying, and you are pulled over. You calmly announce to the patrol office. I am carrying, and its located XXXXXXXX, would you like me to hand it to you, or you get it yourself?

I’m thinking that works better for some people than others...

[Old Man]

I’m thinking that works better for some people than others...

If your hands are on the steering wheel at 10 and 2, like I was taught by my father when pulled over. You do what you need to do, so he or she, knows you are not a threat. (Of course, when he taught me this, it was only males).