540 replies to this topic

[JeremyStrain]

Sorry, I meant the Jacob Blake thread. Thanks though

Maybe a mod can move this?

Better?

[Mackus]

I believe in a world where all people are treated the same.

I also believe regardless of race you give up protections when you knowingly doing things that many of these people are doing.

1) disobeying a lawful order
2) carrying and/or concealing illegal weapons and reaching for them while there is an attempt to arrest you
3) wrestling with police attempting to make arrests
4) stealing weapons from an officer and trying to use it on them
5) trying to flee and injuring or killing the offer while doing it
6) engaging in felonious criminal activity that could harm law abiding citizens

The problem I have is that if a white person does items 1 thru 6 that you list they usually aren't shot. But if a black person does them, far too often and far too frequently they are shot.

So yes, I agree with those things you say. When people act a fool, the odds of something happening bad to them go up. But those odds go up way higher if you're black than if you're white.

You also started by saying you think all people should be treated the same. Can you honestly say that the criteria you outlined are applied equally to white and black suspects? Are they treated the same?

The shooter in Kenosha had an AR15 in hand, walking away from the site of a shooting, and the responding officers stopped and briefly talked to him then let him go.

Shannon Sharpe had a tweet today of video of a white guy in a pickup truck losing his damn mind on an officer who was pointing a gun on him. Would that level of non-compliance be tolerated from a black suspect?

Different officers, different cases, different scenarios...but the common theme is that non-complying black suspects are dealt with far more harshly and deadly than are non-complying white suspects. That's the problem.

One potential solution, is just shoot more white people. Make it equal. That's somewhat facetious, but not entirely so. I am 95% sure that if white people were consistently shot for the same actions that black people are getting consistently shot for, that policing would get reformed.

[Roll Tide]

Counterpoint: Yes, he is.

Proof? You have none so dont bother 

[Mike in STL]

Agree with what you said except for the last sentence.

If you are making an arrest and a guys says "I am going into my car to get a knife" you believe him? You don't think he may actually be going for a gun? Maybe it doesn't matter if you do the other things you say before hand. But at the time of the incident the officers do not know just what may or may not have been in that car. And I get you are saying that doesn't justify shooting based on your training. Ok I'll defer to you.

No, you don’t always believe everything everyone says. Which is why you take the steps to make him not get to the car door when the situation escalated.

You continually analyze situations and can’t jump to conclusions.

[The Epic]

Proof? You have none so dont bother 

 

We've already brought this up in the original thread. He's had several hissyfits related to racial injustice and the protests therein, which has resulted in at least two times where he's temporarily shut the site down. I've seen, on fb, arguments he's had that absolutely meet the dogwhistle test. His commentary on certain black players (including Adam Jones, who actually was in the reply chain of his Twitter announcement of OH closing, which is WILD) is also of note. This is a large "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" situation. 

 

And to be clear, this is independent of his outward support for [REDACTED], though it certainly does not help his case.

 

If you're waiting for me to say, "Here's a video of Tony dropping an n-bomb," those don't exist, and for most racists, they never do. Unless you're Donald Sterling. What an idiot.

[The Epic]

An additional thing to note is that (and anybody can call me out on this if I'm wrong here) I am really hesitant to call people racist. Incredibly so. I've had very racially charged arguments with at least a dozen people on this site, and I've never "gone there" with anyone here. 

 

I feel like that's a hard line to cross, and Tony is across that line.

[Roll Tide]

1) The problem I have is that if a white person does items 1 thru 6 that you list they usually aren't shot. But if a black person does them, far too often and far too frequently they are shot.

2) So yes, I agree with those things you say. When people act a fool, the odds of something happening bad to them go up. But those odds go up way higher if you're black than if you're white.

3) You also started by saying you think all people should be treated the same. Can you honestly say that the criteria you outlined are applied equally to white and black suspects? Are they treated the same?

4) The shooter in Kenosha had an AR15 in hand, walking away from the site of a shooting, and the responding officers stopped and briefly talked to him then let him go.

5) Shannon Sharpe had a tweet today of video of a white guy in a pickup truck losing his damn mind on an officer who was pointing a gun on him. Would that level of non-compliance be tolerated from a black suspect?

6) Different officers, different cases, different scenarios...but the common theme is that non-complying black suspects are dealt with far more harshly and deadly than are non-complying white suspects. That's the problem.

7) One potential solution, is just shoot more white people. Make it equal. That's somewhat facetious, but not entirely so. I am 95% sure that if white people were consistently shot for the same actions that black people are getting consistently shot for, that policing would get reformed.

1) I think if the similar situation happens as the one in Wisconsin the outcome is the same IMO ....  The officer knew that the guy had a knife. they tried to taze him twice, pull him back by the shirt, and was giving him orders that he was ignoring. If he doesn't shoot him its at least possible he gets stabbed. I read somewhere and perhaps someone confirm that the officer training was to shoot until the victim goes down. I am not a police officer so I dont know if that is a fact or not. I cant in no way bunch that situation or the Atlanta situation in the same bucket as the George Floyd case. Which by the way I remembering being emotionally distraught after viewing.

 

2) I cant argue the black/white probability.... But at % percentage do black individuals do all things in point 1 compared to white people? I think that the percentage is considerably higher. I'd love to see the real numbers. One thing that we know for sure is that these happenings continue to go down in the inner city. The areas tend to be heavily concentrated with black people,

 

Part of the culture of the inner city is teaching their kids to hate or not trust the police.

 

3) No ... I don't think so and that is a shame. But I also think that the number of people not cooperating is huge problem. And I think its mainly stems from being raised in the inner city,

 

4) I think you are talking about the riot incident here.... I did not see the whole situation .... What I did the shooter was walking toward he police with the hanging on a sling around his neck and his hands raised high. If he had the rifle pointed at the police I am confident he is shot and killed

 

********IMO no one should be able to carry without a special permit for specific purposes. Walking the streets around protesters is not a reason. Also this person should and probably will spend the rest of his life in jail.

 

5) First ... The guy in the clip is a moron. But, the police in the other situation knew the guy had a knife in the car according to the report. I think that is the biggest difference.  this guy doesn't touch the cop or swing at him. Is behavior is unreasonable and inappropriate and he should spend time in jail over it.

 

6) A lot of it is the action wrestling with police, stealing a taser, shooting it at them, knowing the offender had a knife in the vehicle

 

Did the officer fear the guy was going for the knife and fear for his life? Does the officer in the video with the pickup guy ever appear to be in fear of his life?

 

I will say that I'm sure there is a difference in treatment and I don't thinks it right. But, I think a lot of this stuff is politically charged and think the BLM would have a better case if they appeared to understand the difference between this situation and Mr Floyd.

 

I am sure you agree that they are not the same?

 

7) I dont know what to say ...Its sad when any life is lost. And I dont think destroying property, looting, or the protest marches do anything to fix the problem. If people choose to participate in a protest that is their right. I think we have a big problem that is going to difficult to fix

[Roll Tide]

No, you don’t always believe everything everyone says. Which is why you take the steps to make him not get to the car door when the situation escalated.

You continually analyze situations and can’t jump to conclusions.

They tried to use a taser on him twice but were unsuccessful according to the report. So shooting him wasn't anywhere near the first action taken according to the report

 

The exspouse had a restraining order against him which at very least tells you that she was scared of him.

 

Why was he there with a knife in the car? Why did he ignore the restraining order and go to the house? Why did he ignore the lawful orders of the officers? Arent the failed Tasers enough to let him know the matter was serous?

 

Isn't there any personal responsibility for the situation by the defendant?

[The Epic]

2) I cant argue the black/white probability.... But at % percentage do black individuals do all things in point 1 compared to white people? I think that the percentage is considerably higher. I'd love to see the real numbers. One thing that we know for sure is that these happenings continue to go down in the inner city. The areas tend to be heavily concentrated with black people,

 

Part of the culture of the inner city is teaching their kids to hate or not trust the police.

 

 

[Mackus]

They tried to use a taser on him twice but were unsuccessful according to the report. So shooting him wasn't anywhere near the first action taken according to the report

The exspouse had a restraining order against him which at very least tells you that she was scared of him.

Why was he there with a knife in the car? Why did he ignore the restraining order and go to the house? Why did he ignore the lawful orders of the officers? Arent the failed Tasers enough to let him know the matter was serous?

Isn't there any personal responsibility for the situation by the defendant?

Yes, there is personal responsibility. He should be arrested and charged for all those crimes.

Unless he posed an imminent threat to the office or or others on the scene, and from the video I think it's clear he did not, he should not have been shot.

You can't shoot someone because they might become a threat. You can't suppose a weapon. They have to be an actual threat. You have to see the weapon.

He had his back turned and was not moving quickly. Lethal force was not justified.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Irrelevant. Not saying they don't, in fact I believe they do. But that doesn't change the end result.

 

Irrelevant? So when someone who is lethally armed and has the authority to shoot you, treats you as a greater threat right from the get-go because of your color, you don't think that could have any bearing on how things end? I think the numbers alone prove you wrong on that.

[Mackus]

4) I think you are talking about the riot incident here.... I did not see the whole situation .... What I did the shooter was walking toward he police with the hanging on a sling around his neck and his hands raised high. If he had the rifle pointed at the police I am confident he is shot and killed

I intend to reply to your other points but short on time so just going to reply to this.

You've said the officers knew Blake had a knife in the car (but not on him) and that justifies the shooting.

But you then say that the Kenosha guy didn't have his hands on his large gun, hands in the air.

So are you saying a man slowly getting into a car that may have a knife in it somewhere is a lethal threat the justifies lethal force from the officers but a man walking away from a shooting scene with a rifle doesn't even need to be detained?

That's the disparity. That's what needs to be fixed. Gauge the threat based on the actions, not based on the skin color. If you want to allow police to shoot anyone who might be a threat, ok I guess that's a way you can go, but then you better treat everyone as a threat and shoot them. The same action taken by a black man and a white man shouldn't result in such disparately different results. That's the inequity.

[You Play to Win the Game]

To me, a fail proof litmus test of someone's racism is when people continuously care much more about the reaction of systemic racism than the systemic racism itself. It's really not that complicated.

[mweb08]

To me, a fail proof litmus test of someone racism is when people continuously care much more to the reaction of systemic racism than the systemic racism itself. It's really not that complicated.

Agreed. And the evidence of the systemic racism and its impact is overwhelming and undeniable.

[Roll Tide]

Yes, there is personal responsibility. He should be arrested and charged for all those crimes.

Unless he posed an imminent threat to the office or or others on the scene, and from the video I think it's clear he did not, he should not have been shot.

You can't shoot someone because they might become a threat. You can't suppose a weapon. They have to be an actual threat. You have to see the weapon.

He had his back turned and was not moving quickly. Lethal force was not justified.

How would you feel if the officer didnt shoot, the person in question grabs the knife and stabs the officer in the neck. As a result the officer loses his life?

 

Would you blame the officer if that is how he felt?

 

We obviously dont know for sure that it was his intent .... But they were firing tasers at him and he still woudln't comply.

[mweb08]

How would you feel if the officer didnt shoot, the person in question grabs the knife and stabs the officer in the neck. As a result the officer loses his life?

Would you blame the officer if that is how he felt?

We obviously dont know for sure that it was his intent .... But they were firing tasers at him and he still woudln't comply.

No loss of life is of course the goal, but what you describe would take a remarkable level of incompetence by the officer.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Kind of an aside, and not sure I've completely thought it through, but Tony's son is a world class wrestler. He's VERY good. My uncle, who was a collegiate wrestler and held most RB records at Towson prior to Terrance West, coached him.

To me, those are the type of police we need more of. Those skilled in the art of non-lethal de-escelation and self defense.

[Roll Tide]

I intend to reply to your other points but short on time so just going to reply to this.

1) You've said the officers knew Blake had a knife in the car (but not on him) and that justifies the shooting.

2) But you then say that the Kenosha guy didn't have his hands on his large gun, hands in the air.

3) So are you saying a man slowly getting into a car that may have a knife in it somewhere is a lethal threat the justifies lethal force from the officers but a man walking away from a shooting scene with a rifle doesn't even need to be detained?

4) That's the disparity. That's what needs to be fixed. Gauge the threat based on the actions, not based on the skin color. If you want to allow police to shoot anyone who might be a threat, ok I guess that's a way you can go, but then you better treat everyone as a threat and shoot them. The same action taken by a black man and a white man shouldn't result in such disparately different results. That's the inequity.

1) NO MACKUS >>>I DIDNT SAY THAT AT ALL! AND THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS.

 The act of going for the knife would be the justification to shoot him IMO.

 

2) IF the Shooter with the AR15 had the gun in his hands im confident that he wouldve been shot regardless of race. If the guy in the police shooting tells the police that he had a knife in his waistband that wouldn't be grounds to shoot him. The act of reaching in his waist to retrieve it would.

 

3) OK ...This is getting absurd the knife was in the floor between the seat and the door...Not somewhere in the car.You know I have a knife,,,,you tell me im under arrest, shoot 2 taser guns at me, threaten deadly force, and despite all of that I try to go in the vehicle. Whatever his intention it was a stupid decision. Not following orders was a stupid decision, Now he's handicapped for the rest of his life which is a tragedy! And it couldve been easily avoided by complying with the orders.

 

4) we can agree to disagree ...You or I will never know why the officer shot him beyond his word. I am happy to admit that. I refuse to immediately believe that an officer of 7 years that I dont believe had any prior complaints or actions is a racist.\

 

Mr Kaul said officers were called to an address after a woman reported "her boyfriend was present and was not supposed to be on the premises".

While there, they tried to arrest Mr Blake, initially using a taser against him. After Mr Blake opened his car door, Mr Sheskey - who has been in the Kenosha Police Department for seven years - fired seven shots into Mr Blake's back.

"No other officer fired their weapon," Mr Kaul said.

Mr Blake has since told investigators that he had a knife in his possession, and Mr Kaul said officers "recovered a knife from the driver's side floorboard" of his car. They found no other weapon in the vehicle.

 

The witness also said this

 

As he opens the door and leans into the car, one officer can be seen grabbing his shirt and opening fire. Seven shots can be heard in the video, as witnesses shout and scream

Mr White told the AP news agency that he heard police officers shout "Drop the knife!" before gunfire erupted, but said he didn't see a knife in Mr Blake's hands.

Kenosha Police do not have body cameras, although they do have microphones

 

He didnt see he went to sit in the car ...He said leans into the car

 

 

So the officers believed he had retrieved the knife.

 

The witness said he did not see the knife but how far away was he and at what angle?

 

 

I dont know about you but I'd Like to hear the tape before I conclude that the officer is innocent or guilty.

 

 

 

I'm done here ....

 

https://www.bbc.com/...canada-53909766

[Roll Tide]

No loss of life is of course the goal, but what you describe would take a remarkable level of incompetence by the officer.

We can agree to disagree..... If I think soemone is going to stab me I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them. And for the record I dont own a gun or carry a knife in my car

 

I mentioned in my response to Mackus .... Im done

 

Thanks

[mweb08]

2) I cant argue the black/white probability.... But at % percentage do black individuals do all things in point 1 compared to white people? I think that the percentage is considerably higher. I'd love to see the real numbers. One thing that we know for sure is that these happenings continue to go down in the inner city. The areas tend to be heavily concentrated with black people,

Part of the culture of the inner city is teaching their kids to hate or not trust the police.

3) No ... I don't think so and that is a shame. But I also think that the number of people not cooperating is huge problem. And I think its mainly stems from being raised in the inner city,

2) African Americans are treated worse at every level of the criminal justice process independent of other factors.

2/3) As a teacher in Baltimore, I have experience with what you're talking about in terms of attitudes towards police. I think there's some truth to what you say, but I also think that ideology may not be quite as strong as you may think.

Either way, do you think African Americans just randomly have those feelings and thoughts in relation to police or do you think there's justification for it?