540 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

We can agree to disagree..... If I think soemone is going to stab me I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them. And for the record I dont own a gun or carry a knife in my car

I mentioned in my response to Mackus .... Im done

Thanks

I mean that's a situation that I feel like I could handle without a loss of life occurring, so I'd hope that a highly trained officer could do the same.

[BobPhelan]

I'm done here ....

I think that would be for the best at this point.

[The Epic]

1) NO MACKUS >>>I DIDNT SAY THAT AT ALL! AND THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS.

 The act of going for the knife would be the justification to shoot him IMO.

 

2) IF the Shooter with the AR15 had the gun in his hands im confident that he wouldve been shot regardless of race. If the guy in the police shooting tells the police that he had a knife in his waistband that wouldn't be grounds to shoot him. The act of reaching in his waist to retrieve it would.

 

3) OK ...This is getting absurd the knife was in the floor between the seat and the door...Not somewhere in the car.You know I have a knife,,,,you tell me im under arrest, shoot 2 taser guns at me, threaten deadly force, and despite all of that I try to go in the vehicle. Whatever his intention it was a stupid decision. Not following orders was a stupid decision, Now he's handicapped for the rest of his life which is a tragedy! And it couldve been easily avoided by complying with the orders.

 

4) we can agree to disagree ...You or I will never know why the officer shot him beyond his word. I am happy to admit that. I refuse to immediately believe that an officer of 7 years that I dont believe had any prior complaints or actions is a racist.\

 

 

The witness also said this

 

 

He didnt see he went to sit in the car ...He said leans into the car

 

 

So the officers believed he had retrieved the knife.

 

The witness said he did not see the knife but how far away was he and at what angle?

 

 

I dont know about you but I'd Like to hear the tape before I conclude that the officer is innocent or guilty.

 

 

 

I'm done here ....

 

https://www.bbc.com/...canada-53909766

 

If you're done, you're done, but nothing you said answers the disparity that Mackus noted. Even if he had a knife, with his back turned to the cop, he's still less of a threat than a guy with an AR 15 that people are saying shot someone. 

[Mike in STL]

They tried to use a taser on him twice but were unsuccessful according to the report. So shooting him wasn't anywhere near the first action taken according to the report

The exspouse had a restraining order against him which at very least tells you that she was scared of him.

Why was he there with a knife in the car? Why did he ignore the restraining order and go to the house? Why did he ignore the lawful orders of the officers? Arent the failed Tasers enough to let him know the matter was serous?

Isn't there any personal responsibility for the situation by the defendant?

All of those questions are irrelevant to whether or not he should have been shot. Who cares why he has a knife in the car? I have a knife in my car.

When tasers failed, why didn’t they tackle him? Why didn’t they give him at most a baton to the leg when he’s walking to the car? You shouldn’t be able to go from taser to gun in use of force. Gun is literally last resort. Why is this hard to grasp? If the cop didn’t have his gun out he could have made more than the half hearted attempt at gaining control when he tries to grab his shirt and shoots him 0.001 seconds later.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Irrelevant? So when someone who is lethally armed and has the authority to shoot you, treats you as a greater threat right from the get-go because of your color, you don't think that could have any bearing on how things end? I think the numbers alone prove you wrong on that.

I think you are making my point. If a person believes that the cop perceives them in a bad light from the get go then I would think the smart move is to play it as safe as you can. Comply totally. What do they gain by not doing so?

 

Here's another way to look at it. Joe Cop has a poor attitude for whatever reason toward a black man. So he is interacting with a black man and the black man doesn't comply. He just reinforced the cops bad attitude.

 

Dont misread what I am saying. No way this excuses the bad cops attitude. But giving the cop grief is not going to fix the problem. If anything it makes it worse.

[Grindelwald]

No here

Tony is not racist ....Period!

I am not racist either.... I believe in a world where all people are treated the same.

I also believe regardless of race you give up protections when you knowingly doing things that many of these people are doing.

1) disobeying a lawful order
2) carrying and/or concealing illegal weapons and reaching for them while there is an attempt to arrest you
3) wrestling with police attempting to make arrests
4) stealing weapons from an officer and trying to use it on them
5) trying to flee and injuring or killing the offer while doing it
6) engaging in felonious criminal activity that could harm law abiding citizens



As I mentioned,

Funny how we always get those people who always say "just follow the law and bad stuff won't happen to you". Guess who chose not to follow the law? Kyle Rittenhouse. And that produced zero outraged Republicans. People are sick of the double standards coming from the right.

 

What more would Tony have to do to convince you he's racist? 

[BSLMikeLowe]

I think you are making my point. If a person believes that the cop perceives them in a bad light from the get go then I would think the smart move is to play it as safe as you can. Comply totally. What do they gain by not doing so?

 

Here's another way to look at it. Joe Cop has a poor attitude for whatever reason toward a black man. So he is interacting with a black man and the black man doesn't comply. He just reinforced the cops bad attitude.

 

Dont misread what I am saying. No way this excuses the bad cops attitude. But giving the cop grief is not going to fix the problem. If anything it makes it worse.

 

I think it's easy for you and me to say that we would more willingly capitulate to any command a cop gives us in that situation. I can't get on board with that thinking though when I have never walked in the shoes of someone who, whenever they have any contact with law enforcement, probably think before anything else, "Am I going to come out of this alive?" When I hear African Americans talk about this issue, many of them sound like they are genuinely frightened.

[The Epic]

I think it's easy for you and me to say that we would more willingly capitulate to any command a cop gives us in that situation. I can't get on board with that thinking though when I have never walked in the shoes of someone who, whenever they have any contact with law enforcement, probably think before anything else, "Am I going to come out of this alive?" When I hear African Americans talk about this issue, many of them sound like they are genuinely frightened.

 

100%. I would also add that this is a very defeatist line of thinking that doesn't solve anything. "Well, that's just how it is, so act accordingly."

 

I'd ALSO add that people that have totally complied have had awful, awful things happen to them outside of the view of a camera. Policemen have raped, murdered and extorted people simply because they could, even if these individuals have complied. Black people have been saying this since policing has become a thing.

 

BTW, didn't know you were in Portland. How is it over there, given the goings on from yesterday?

[BSLMikeLowe]

100%. I would also add that this is a very defeatist line of thinking that doesn't solve anything. "Well, that's just how it is, so act accordingly."

 

I'd ALSO add that people that have totally complied have had awful, awful things happen to them outside of the view of a camera. Policemen have raped, murdered and extorted people simply because they could, even if these individuals have complied. Black people have been saying this since policing has become a thing.

 

BTW, didn't know you were in Portland. How is it over there, given the goings on from yesterday?

 

Exactly. No one should have to interact differently with law enforcement solely because of their color, because they shouldn't be judged solely by their color in the first place. Like racism itself, I don't think it's something we can ever really eliminate, at least not in our lifetimes. But we have to do much better, or at least try much harder.

 

I asked Steve a question at the start of this conversation when he talked about what he was taught as a kid when interacting with police, as to whether he was taught at that time that police automatically treat certain people differently. I certainly wasn't. For the longest time I assumed they primarily judged you by your actions, because that's how I thought it was supposed to work. I don't remember exactly when it finally dawned on me that was far from the case, but it was probably Rodney King, and I was in my early 20's by then.

 

As for here in Portland, the unrest is pretty localized, primarily downtown. And it pretty much only occurs at night when I'm typically home. Right at this moment downtown probably looks like a boarded up ghost town. I feel for the people who have/had businesses there. Between the pandemic and social unrest, their customers have been gone for months and many of them couldn't make it. Anyway, because of that I rarely have a need to go downtown, so if it weren't for the news I'd barely notice here in the NE section of the city.

 

It is concerning, though unsurprising, that the right-wing groups are getting involved now. Right and left demonstrators have had clashes here for the past few years that have escalated to violence. But last night was the first time I can recall that someone ended up dead. I hope that's not a sign of what's to come.

[Mackus]

I think you are making my point. If a person believes that the cop perceives them in a bad light from the get go then I would think the smart move is to play it as safe as you can. Comply totally. What do they gain by not doing so?

Here's another way to look at it. Joe Cop has a poor attitude for whatever reason toward a black man. So he is interacting with a black man and the black man doesn't comply. He just reinforced the cops bad attitude.

Dont misread what I am saying. No way this excuses the bad cops attitude. But giving the cop grief is not going to fix the problem. If anything it makes it worse.

Seems a lot like "If you didn't dress that way you wouldn't get raped."

[russsnyder]

Kind of an aside, and not sure I've completely thought it through, but Tony's son is a world class wrestler. He's VERY good. My uncle, who was a collegiate wrestler and held most RB records at Towson prior to Terrance West, coached him.

To me, those are the type of police we need more of. Those skilled in the art of non-lethal de-escelation and self defense.

I remember that one of Tony's sons wrestled D1 in college. He definitely should be able to put his skills to good use. Years ago? I worked with a kid who was a good wrestler in high school. I was in good shape and outweighed him by about 50 pounds. We were messing around in the warehouse during a lunch break and he threw me around like a rag doll within 45 seconds. I would have had zero chance of I was a real threat to him.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I remember that one of Tony's sons wrestled D1 in college. He definitely should be able to put his skills to good use. Years ago? I worked with a kid who was a good wrestler in high school. I was in good shape and outweighed him by about 50 pounds. We were messing around in the warehouse during a lunch break and he threw me around like a rag doll within 45 seconds. I would have had zero chance of I was a real threat to him.

Yep, I also wrestled. Best thing I ever did in my youth. It has served me well, it's so basic and easy, but you really do learn to rather easily neutralize any threats.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Seems a lot like "If you didn't dress that way you wouldn't get raped."

I have no idea how you equate what I wrote with that. None.

 

So I am done with this thread. 

[Roll Tide]

Funny how we always get those people who always say "just follow the law and bad stuff won't happen to you". Guess who chose not to follow the law? Kyle Rittenhouse. And that produced zero outraged Republicans. People are sick of the double standards coming from the right.

 

What more would Tony have to do to convince you he's racist? 

 

I’m not a republican for the record. I think Rittenhouse is wrong for what he did and deserves to go to jail for the rest of his life. 
 

I went to a mixed high school just south of Baltimore and have many black friends. Went in the military and my ranger buddy and good friend was black. 
 

I'm a football referee and have been one for half of my life. When I officiate I don’t see color of skin ...Just Jersey colors.

 

I have been treated very well as a football official in Northwood, Radecke, Woodlawn, and in Atlanta.

 

You guys can judge me anyway you want but I hope for a better world where this bullshit doesn’t exist.

 

If we are going to fix this terrible problem it is going to take ownership on both sides. On the the public servants side it will take more restraint, work to build a better bond with the community, and weeding out the bad eggs.

 

For the community, if you think defying the police is going to make things better you are kidding yourself. 

[russsnyder]

Yep, I also wrestled. Best thing I ever did in my youth. It has served me well, it's so basic and easy, but you really do learn to rather easily neutralize any threats.

You went to SC right? They have an outstanding wrestling program.

Yeah, that kid neutralized me that day. I figured since I had done ok in wrestling class in junior high I could hold my own.

I was Wrong.

[You Play to Win the Game]

You went to SC right? They have an outstanding wrestling program.

Yeah, that kid neutralized me that day. I figured since I had done ok in wrestling class in junior high I could hold my own.

I was Wrong.

Yep, they really do. And my uncle coached me up a bit. I wasn't great, but I held my own. Had an State Champion ahead of me on the depth chart. Getting your ass kicked every day in practice helped me come a long way with it. Nothing glorious or fun about wrestling, but it's an incredible sport.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yep, I also wrestled. Best thing I ever did in my youth. It has served me well, it's so basic and easy, but you really do learn to rather easily neutralize any threats.

I would encourage my son to wrestle. Not only is it a great base for self defense its also great for teaching dicipline.

[russsnyder]

Yep, they really do. And my uncle coached me up a bit. I wasn't great, but I held my own. Had an State Champion ahead of me on the depth chart. Getting your ass kicked every day in practice helped me come a long way with it. Nothing glorious or fun about wrestling, but it's an incredible sport.

It seems to be one of the few high school sports that isn't impacted that much by politics. You have to earn your spot all the time. Back to your original point, Tony's son should be able to handle his business pretty well. You are probably being modest. If you were at another school you probably would have been the one doing the ass kicking.

[mweb08]

The only issue with wrestling is the weight cutting, which is not a healthy process unless they've changed some things.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The only issue with wrestling is the weight cutting, which is not a healthy process unless they've changed some things.

Its can be unhealthy but it teaches dicipline. Some weight cutting is ok but you should have to wrestle within 1 or 2 classes of your natural weight.