781 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I care. I wish he was here sooner and I don't understand the rationale for why he wasn't.

Because he was hurt and ramping back up after the injury

[Mackus]

Insert Jennifer Lawrence gif here

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Insert Jennifer Lawrence gif here

I really dont know what your issue is. Im not being disingenuous. I believe, and Elias has essentially said, he was going to break camp with the Os without the injury. After he ramped back up and went to Aberdeen Phelan predicted Mon. I said Fri. I think most thought it would be a week to 10 days at every level. Are we really that mad about 4 days.

[Mackus]

I'm confused about the explanation of why it was Sat instead of Fri or Mon. Not having a logical explanation makes me think that it wasn't the actual reason. And I think having bad reasons for holding him back could be red flags for future, unrelated decisions.

Ricker's suggestion makes the most sense to me, I think. They were going to push him until clear of Super-2 concerns and then got cold feet and decided to pull the trigger amid all the growing bad press. Better to right that wrong, at least, even if not for great reasons.

[Mike B]

It feels like we are looking for conspiracies.   

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'm confused about the explanation of why it was Sat instead of Fri or Mon. Not having a logical explanation makes me think that it wasn't the actual reason. And I think having bad reasons for holding him back could be red flags for future, unrelated decisions.

Ricker's suggestion makes the most sense to me, I think. They were going to push him until clear of Super-2 concerns and then got cold feet and decided to pull the trigger amid all the growing bad press. Better to right that wrong, at least, even if not for great reasons.

Thats just unfair. Another example of people looking for anything to complain about. Which has now evolved into conspiracy theories.

[Mackus]

I don't have to hunt for things to complain about.  They are abundant and have been for years now.

 

I'm trying to convince myself that the people in charge can accomplish the difficult task ahead of them.  Some signs point to yes and others point to no.  Elias' track record in scouting and development points to yes.  The new addition internationally points to yes.  The trades and drafts he's made so far point to yes.  The development of several prospects points to yes.  Elias being someone who doesn't care at all about the difference between a 50 win team and a 70 win team points to no.  Ownership having a long track record of ineptitude points to no.

 

I don't know entirely what to make of Rutschman's timeline, but I have some concerns about it that make me think management's handling of him to date is another negative sign.  Not as important of a red flag as their complete unwillingness to spend any money to avoid being abysmal, but I think its another thing that gives me pause from buying in to this group (management and ownership) being able to do the things we need them to do to see a winner here.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Just heard the full Elias presser. He talks about payroll flexabilty and he talks about being able to cut guys loose next year when answering a question about GRod. While playing certain things close to the vest, I think he's also shown a knack for being open and honest in his interviews. Be skeptical if you want. Think he is lying if you want. Do you. Im fully on board that we are in the process of flipping the switch and next year we will be competing hard

[Mike in STL]

Thats just unfair. Another example of people looking for anything to complain about. Which has now evolved into conspiracy theories.

Mackus isn’t one to conspiracy theorize, or look for things to complaining about when there isn’t anything there. Many people have been asking what took so long. The timing is very odd. And the reason doesn’t hold water.

Elias knows all the rules. Does his due diligence. When they drafted Brady Aiken in Houston and were unhappy with his physical, they offered him to the penny a contract that if Aiken declined, allowed them to get an extra draft pick the following year (Alex Bregman), and not a penny more. He’s certainly smart enough to know when Super 2 should be around, within a few days, all signs were pointing that way.

My hunch is ownership may have actually forced his hand given the odd timing. Because Elias hasn’t been willing to put together a contending team yet. Far from it. So what’s his rush to get him here? Ownership has different stakeholders they answer to. People that give them money that may have threatened to shut that money faucet off if they dicked around any longer.

Now I sound like a conspiracy theorist. But it’s not a stretch to think they aren’t telling us the whole story here. In that regard, who cares, he’s here now, sure. But I certainly am concerned by the process.

We’ll see. This week is a slam dunk chance to call up G-Rod. The timing is perfect. He’s performing. Will they? What will they do at the deadline? Will they extend Mancini? Despite the Adley call up, are they still in tear down mode?

[BobPhelan]

They will definitely not extend Mancini and they will definitely not call up Rodriguez until they believe he is ready no matter the rotation need at the major league level.

Candidates to be traded are Mancini, Santander, Lopez, Tate, and maybe Lyles.

August/September should look something like this:

C Adley Rutschman
1B Ryan Mountcastle
2B Terrin Vavra
SS Jorge Mateo
3B Tyler Nevin
LF Austin Hays
CF Cedric Mullins
RF Kyle Stowers
DH Robert Neustrom

INF Ramon Urias
C Robinson Chirinos
OF Ryan Mckenna
OF Yusniel Diaz

SP Bruce Zimmermann
SP Jordan Lyles
SP Kyle Bradish
SP Grayson Rodriguez
SP Tyler Wells/DL Hall (tandem)

RP Felix Bautista
RP Nick Vespi
RP Cionel Perez
RP Logan Gillaspie
RP Cole Uvila
RP Keegan Akin
RP Michael Baumann

[Mike in STL]

They will definitely not extend Mancini and they will definitely not call up Rodriguez until they believe he is ready no matter the rotation need at the major league level.

Candidates to be traded are Mancini, Santander, Lopez, Tate, and maybe Lyles.

August/September should look something like this:

C Adley Rutschman
1B Ryan Mountcastle
2B Terrin Vavra
SS Jorge Mateo
3B Tyler Nevin
LF Austin Hays
CF Cedric Mullins
RF Kyle Stowers
DH Robert Neustrom

INF Ramon Urias
C Robinson Chirinos
OF Ryan Mckenna
OF Yusniel Diaz

SP Bruce Zimmermann
SP Jordan Lyles
SP Kyle Bradish
SP Grayson Rodriguez
SP Tyler Wells/DL Hall (tandem)

RP Felix Bautista
RP Nick Vespi
RP Cionel Perez
RP Logan Gillaspie
RP Cole Uvila
RP Keegan Akin
RP Michael Baumann

So still in teardown mode. I guess if they really make an effort in FA for 2023, ok. But entering ‘23 with half a lineup again will be frustrating.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Mackus isn’t one to conspiracy theorize, or look for things to complaining about when there isn’t anything there. Many people have been asking what took so long. The timing is very odd. And the reason doesn’t hold water.

Elias knows all the rules. Does his due diligence. When they drafted Brady Aiken in Houston and were unhappy with his physical, they offered him to the penny a contract that if Aiken declined, allowed them to get an extra draft pick the following year (Alex Bregman), and not a penny more. He’s certainly smart enough to know when Super 2 should be around, within a few days, all signs were pointing that way.

My hunch is ownership may have actually forced his hand given the odd timing. Because Elias hasn’t been willing to put together a contending team yet. Far from it. So what’s his rush to get him here? Ownership has different stakeholders they answer to. People that give them money that may have threatened to shut that money faucet off if they dicked around any longer.

Now I sound like a conspiracy theorist. But it’s not a stretch to think they aren’t telling us the whole story here. In that regard, who cares, he’s here now, sure. But I certainly am concerned by the process.

We’ll see. This week is a slam dunk chance to call up G-Rod. The timing is perfect. He’s performing. Will they? What will they do at the deadline? Will they extend Mancini? Despite the Adley call up, are they still in tear down mode?

I do think Mack has been overly cynical. As have a lot of fans. Y'all are entilted to feel how you want but I think youre being unfair. Mack was certain 3 or 4 days ago it would be mid to late June because of S2. Hes also said the injury was oversold and the talk of AR breaking camp was just a PR stunt. Now, AR is here within a week of everyones projections after he started his rehab assignment and we are still finding reasons to be cynical and critical.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

So still in teardown mode. I guess if they really make an effort in FA for 2023, ok. But entering ‘23 with half a lineup again will be frustrating.

Lyes isnt a part of the future. I personally dont think Santander is either. Trey could be. His bat is legit. The best hitter in our lineup. That said he is a FA at the end of the year, 30+ yrs old, and a DH/1B.  Tate isnt a specal BP arm. TBD on Lopez but I think he's closer to solid than great. Moving any of these guys aren't necessarily teardown moves to me. It also depends on the return. Are they getting back young prospects or ML ready prospects/vets. Can they make a trade where they move Santander and a very good Lopez for a  decent-quality ML starter. 

[BobPhelan]

So still in teardown mode. I guess if they really make an effort in FA for 2023, ok. But entering ‘23 with half a lineup again will be frustrating.

I don’t think it’s tear down mode to trade guys that aren’t long term keepers in a season where you have no shot at the playoffs. And they may only trade one of Mancini/Santander to open up a spot for Stowers.

Elias making a point to mention payroll flexibility for the first time I can recall is interesting. I don’t think they’re gonna go “all in” this offseason but any moves will be made with a different motive than they have been since he took over.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I don’t think it’s tear down mode to trade guys that aren’t long term keepers in a season where you have no shot at the playoffs. And they may only trade one of Mancini/Santander to open up a spot for Stowers.

Elias making a point to mention payroll flexibility for the first time I can recall is interesting. I don’t think they’re gonna go “all in” this offseason but any moves will be made with a different motive than they have been since he took over.

It's not the first time he has mentioned it.

[Mackus]

I do think Mack has been overly cynical. As have a lot of fans. Y'all are entilted to feel how you want but I think youre being unfair. Mack was certain 3 or 4 days ago it would be mid to late June because of S2. Hes also said the injury was oversold and the talk of AR breaking camp was just a PR stunt. Now, AR is here within a week of everyones projections after he started his rehab assignment and we are still finding reasons to be cynical and critical.

 

I rarely claim to be certain of anything.  I thought if it wasn't by Friday that they were going to then wait until Super-2 timing.  They called him up Saturday, which I frankly hadn't even considered, was all along assuming the beginning of a series would be the timing and not the middle.  I don't think there is any difference between Friday or Saturday or the previous Monday, so they did call him up at roughly the same time and seemingly without regard to Super-2 status (they may have some finer projection that the cutoff will be high and they really did wait long enough, but I doubt it).  I still don't really understand the reason for choosing Saturday instead of Friday or the previous Monday.  "That was the first day he was ready" is nonsense.  So I'm curious about the actual process, not just as a curiosity but also to consider how that application may shed any more insight into the bigger picture.

 

Had they waited until he was well clear of Super-2, I would have thought that was another one of those very bad omens for the future.  They didn't do that.  But I think they may have been trying to and then just gave up due to some outside .  That's the cleanest explanation in regards to the timing.  Which is fine, I guess, they still eventually did an ok thing.  I'd prefer to get it right from the outset, but if they recognized the mistake and fixed it that's a good thing, too.

[Mackus]

So still in teardown mode. I guess if they really make an effort in FA for 2023, ok. But entering ‘23 with half a lineup again will be frustrating.

 

I won't mind trading away the guys Bob mentions (except Trey, for the reasons 2035 mentions and others...I don't deal Trey unless he requests it) and I don't mind flipping guys at the deadline and dealing with a couple months of a bad roster to finish a season.  That's a very different animal than heading into the season with a handful or more of gaping holes.

 

But if they do that and then only spend $8M total in the offseason, then that'll be a continuation of the nightmare that they've been to-date in regards to MLB roster and I'll be furious.  If there are any holes on the roster being filled by 4A types at the outset of 2023 will make me as mad as anything else I've been mad at during this abomination of a half-decade.  Young actual prospects are fine, but Gutierrez  and Watkins are not.  I don't even really want any more Mateo or Urias level experiments unless they are 2-month bridges to someone like Westburg or Henderson, certainly not more than one position and one pitcher.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

It's not the first time he has mentioned it.

No but he said it right behind mentioning that blue skies are ahead. Again, I really took that presser as a flip has switched. He also was cautious, saying there are still some tough times and hard decisions to be made, but you could hear the confidence and positivity in his voice. Then again maybe he is a great salesman.

[BSLChrisStoner]

They will definitely not extend Mancini and they will definitely not call up Rodriguez until they believe he is ready no matter the rotation need at the major league level.

Candidates to be traded are Mancini, Santander, Lopez, Tate, and maybe Lyles.

August/September should look something like this:

C Adley Rutschman
1B Ryan Mountcastle
2B Terrin Vavra
SS Jorge Mateo
3B Tyler Nevin
LF Austin Hays
CF Cedric Mullins
RF Kyle Stowers
DH Robert Neustrom

INF Ramon Urias
C Robinson Chirinos
OF Ryan Mckenna
OF Yusniel Diaz

SP Bruce Zimmermann
SP Jordan Lyles
SP Kyle Bradish
SP Grayson Rodriguez
SP Tyler Wells/DL Hall (tandem)

RP Felix Bautista
RP Nick Vespi
RP Cionel Perez
RP Logan Gillaspie
RP Cole Uvila
RP Keegan Akin
RP Michael Baumann

I'll be interested to see what they do with Mancini, Santander, Lopez, and Tate.  Guess Lyles too, since there is an option.
Get the argument of why any of them would be made available. Don't think any would necessarily have to be moved. Lopez in particular, I'd be tempted to keep, even if you could now be selling high. 

If they elect not to extend Mancini and move him; I don't see a need to also move Santander. 
I'd rather have Santander also being around, vs. just opening a spot for Neustrom (or a rotation at DH), even though I agree Neustrom could approximate the production. 

Santander is a JAG, but he's got a .762 OPS, and a couple more years of control. Just rather him also be around as another option until he is completely forced out. Also because I don't see him bringing back much.

 

Henderson has to be nearing a promotion to AAA.  If he put up 2 productive months at Norfolk, he could be up before the year ends.

Westburg has rebounded from his funk, and the OPS is back over .800. Another good 10-14 days, and I also see him being moved to Norfolk. I'm still thinking he's going to find ML time this year. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

No but he said it right behind mentioning that blue skies are ahead. Again, I really took that presser as a flip has switched. He also was cautious, saying there are still some tough times and hard decisions to be made, but you could hear the confidence and positivity in his voice. Then again maybe he is a great salesman.

 

Don't think he's being a great salesman.  I'm just saying he has been clear since his initial press conferences when hired that it was part of the plan, and he's spoken more in the last +/- 6 months about that point (spending to augment) coming soon.