104 replies to this topic

[Pedro Cerrano]

BNickle is the man 

[mweb08]

You know what. I'm going to take Rolen and Thome off as 1st ballot guys and instead add Larry Walker.

I don't care much about the first ballot stuff, but even if you do, Rolen isn't getting elected anyway, but there is a very small chance that he could fail to get 5%,so that's a reason to vote for him if you think he's worthy.

[DJ MC]

I don't care much about the first ballot stuff, but even if you do, Rolen isn't getting elected anyway, but there is a very small chance that he could fail to get 5%,so that's a reason to vote for him if you think he's worthy.

 

But *First Ballot* matters because reasons!

[bnickle]

Of course it matters. Only top teir guys should be 1st ballot

[mweb08]

Of course it matters. Only top teir guys should be 1st ballot

 

If everyone had that type of logic, plenty of Hall worthy players wouldn't even make it past the first ballot.

[SportsGuy]

I think I would vote for Andruw over Chipper..Chipper definitely gets in. If it came down to 11 guys and it was Chipper or Andruw, I’m voting Andruw. (Chipper obviously has the better case)

Andruw could fall off the ballot and he has a good case imo. I think he needs to stay on for further evaluation.

[mweb08]

Plus, plenty of non top tier guys get voted in on the first ballot while better players wait. It's not like there's much consistency in the voting with the exceptions of the clearly best of the best. Oh wait, Bonds and Clemens still aren't in. Piazza didn't get in on the first try. Meanwhile Glavine, Smoltz, and Pudge made it on the first ballot. 

 

It's hard to care so much about something like that when there is very little consistentcy behind it. 

 

Then again, that's why it's harder to care about the HOF in general as much as I once did.

[bnickle]

I also wouldn't make a minimum % for guys to remain on the ballot, though I'd also remove some guys from ever being on the ballot In the 1st place

[mweb08]

I also wouldn't make a minimum % for guys to remain on the ballot though I'd ask remove some guys from ever being on the ballot In the 1st place

 

That's good, but dealing with the system that is in place, I think the people that use your approach do a disservice to the Hall because it leads to qualified players dropping off the ballots. If someone wants to use that approach for someone like Thome, that's fine because he'll be ok anyway, but doing it across the board doesn't work well.

[mweb08]

Here's a good article on why Edgar should get in.

 

http://www.sportingn...2d14uikwv9k69ld

[BSLChrisStoner]

Stoner:
Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
Chipper Jones
Schilling
Mussina
Thome
Sheffield
Ramirez
Martinez

 

DJ

Bonds

Clemens

Guerrero

C. Jones

Martinez

Mussina

Ramirez

Rolen

Thome

Walker

 

Jaffe:
Bonds
Clemens
Andruw
Chipper
Thome
Rolen
Martinez
Mussina
Schilling
Walker

 

Mike Weber

Bonds

Clemens

Chipper

Schilling

Mussina

Ramirez

Thome

Martinez

Rolen

Wagner

Nickle
Clemens
Bonds
Mussina
Schilling
Chipper
Walker

Pedro

Bonds

Clemens

Vlad

Manny

Edgar

Chipper

Wagner

Hoffman

Schilling

Moose

Walker

[SBTarheel]

This is fun, here's mine: This is so much harder than it seems.

Bonds 

Clemens

Mussina

Vlad

Chipper Jones

Edgar Martinez

McGriff

Walker

Thome

Schilling

[Mackus]

This is fun.  I'll get a ballot in sometime next week.  Haven't thought about this since at least last year so wanna take some time and revisit.

 

My ballot is gonna have Roy Halladay on it!

[mweb08]

This is fun, here's mine: This is so much harder than it seems.

Bonds 

Clemens

Mussina

Vlad

Chipper Jones

Edgar Martinez

McGriff

Walker

Thome

Schilling

 

The guy who wouldn't vote for Bagwell or Piazza supports Fred McGriff?!?

[SBTarheel]

The guy who wouldn't vote for Bagwell or Piazza supports Fred McGriff?!?

Yea, that's probably fair.  Really dug in to this earlier today after I saw the thread..Wasn't going to put McGriff on there, but I read something interesting saying he was almost virtually the same player before and after the "steroid era", and somewhat gets lost in all of the insane numbers. Made sense as I read it. 

[mweb08]

Yea, that's probably fair.  Really dug in to this earlier today after I saw the thread..Wasn't going to put McGriff on there, but I read something interesting saying he was almost virtually the same player before and after the "steroid era", and somewhat gets lost in all of the insane numbers. Made sense as I read it. 

 

Perhaps one day you'll explain your lack of support for those two guys.   Both light years better than The Crime Dog. 

 

There was a lot more that went into increasing offensive numbers than steroids, though. Smaller parks, juiced balls, better training in general, smaller strike zones, changes in approaches at the plate, etc. 

 

I also just checked his numbers, and what you said here doesn't seem to be true based on a cursory look so I'd be curious how the author reached that conclusion.

 

From '88 to '93, he was basically a .930 OPS guy, his numbers spiked in '94 with a 1.012 OPS, but then fell to .850, .859, .797, and .815 the next 4 years. So a decent drop off there before bouncing back with two big years at age 35 and 37, which for most guys would be looked at with a bit more suspicion. 

[mweb08]

BTW, I don't think McGriff is an infensible choice. 

 

I think it may be difficult to talk about Eddie Murray as a no doubt about it HOFer while also saying McGriff isn't at least a borderline guy. 

[SportsGuy]

Mussina has been getting a lot of votes lately. He’s almost up to 75%.

[SBTarheel]

Mussina has been getting a lot of votes lately. He’s almost up to 75%.

He'll drop at the end, but hopefully ends up in the mid to high 60s. 

[SportsGuy]

My ballot:

 

Mussina

Schilling

Edgar

Rolen

Chipper

Thome

Bonds

Clemens

Walker

 

Few thoughts:

 

1) I thought I would want A Jones on the ballot...I think he falls just short.  Not enough peak..Career BA/OBP underwhelming..case is there but I think he falls short.

 

2) I am torn on Vlad.  He had a pretty great 10 year stretch with the bat but the glove wasn't good, he provided very little baserunning in the second half of his career and his defense wasn't good then either.  I wouldn't have an issue putting him in and I feel he has the best case of those I left off but to me, he falls just short.  He certainly belongs in over some of the guys already enshrined though.

 

3) I think Rolen has a great case for the HOF but ultimately, my vote is to keep him on there more than anything else.  Still, I do think he belongs in.

 

4) Manny has a case, especially offensively.  He provided so little value everywhere else.  This is where the steroids come into play for me.  If you are all bat and nothing else, do you get in with the steroids surrounding you?  How much extra did that give him and was it enough to keep him out had he not done them?

 

5) Sheffield was next closest for me after Vlad but again, the defense was bad.  He was a HOF bat but need to be more than that IMO.

 

6) Agree with Mike that Wagner should be in over Hoffman.  However, I don't think either should be in.  Relievers are part of the game and I feel they deserve a spot but I also feel you have to be great in big moments, the playoffs, etc...Wagner wasn't.  That means something to me when you are throwing so few innings.  Still, I would have no issue putting him in since he was so dominate for what he was asked to do.

 

7) McGriff was very steady and consistent, which is very underrated but I think he needed to be more than he was to make the HOF.