513 replies to this topic

[DJ MC]

Hardy can field whatever he can get to on defense, but I can count on zero fingers the number of times I can remember him actually diving for a ball.

That's a good thing. It means he has real range.

[SportsGuy]

I don't see why. Manny playing 3B isn't gonna hurt anything. Earl played Cal at 3B during his ROY season until July, and the only reason he moved him then is because he decided he'd rather have Rayford's bat at 3B instead of Sakata at SS.

Just because Manny is gonna play SS before too long, that doesn't mean there needs to be a big rush to do it. It comes down to plusses and minuses about what the fall out is for the team's overall offense and defense. Unless Hardy forgot how to hit, there's no good reason to rush him out of being our SS.

The bottom line should be whether or not we can wind up with an overall better IF, both hitting and fielding. That's what should decide it, not some knee-jerk rush to hurry Manny into the SS role.

Rush him into the SS role? What is that even supposed to mean? He is a SS! There is no rushing.

The bottom line is he is still developing as a player and IF you see him as a long term SS, then taking away a few years of development at that position doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, if you have questions about him long term at SS and like what you see at third, so be it. But the Orioles apparently believe he is a SS long term.

[Oriole85]

I'm not suggesting we trade him, but I think you are undervaluing him. I think he has plenty of value coming off a 30 HR season&playing very good defense at a premium position.

Not to call you out, but I've noticed you've soured on him recently when you appeared through your tweets in the past especially last year to be a bigger supporter of his (Thanks for JJ Minnesota).

[RShack]

Rush him into the SS role? What is that even supposed to mean? He is a SS! There is no rushing.

The bottom line is he is still developing as a player and IF you see him as a long term SS, then taking away a few years of development at that position doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, if you have questions about him long term at SS and like what you see at third, so be it. But the Orioles apparently believe he is a SS long term.

I think you're making a big deal about not much. It's not gonna hurt him to play 3B next year if that's what makes the team strongest. Hell, he could play all of next season and half of the season after that, and he could still take over SS while he's younger than Cal was when he moved from 3B to SS. Playing 3B early on didn't hurt Cal, and I don't see how it would hurt Manny either.

And it's not like Cal is the only guy who changed positions and turned out great. Yount won his 1st MVP at SS, and then won his 2nd MVP in CF. Jackie Robinson was ROY at 1B and two years later was MVP at 2B. Pete Rose changed positions all the time. The Braves didn't decide what to do with Chipper until about a week before they brought him up for good. First he was gonna be SS, then they were gonna play him in CF, then at the last minute they put him at 3B, and then they still moved him around some later. All of that stuff was based on what their team needed, and it didn't stop great players from being great, and not only did it not interfere with their teams winning, it helped the teams win.

Now, if we were talking about Manny not getting to develop as a ML *hitter* for a year, that would be big deal. But playing 3B instead of SS for a season? That's just not the problem you're acting like it is.

I don't pretend to know what DD is gonna do, but I don't see how it would be easy to come up with a L side of the IF that's as good or better than Hardy and Manny staying where they are. Maybe DD will do something that will somehow make the team stronger with him at SS, beats me. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping Hardy and Manny where they are for another season. They should decide that based on what makes for the best Oriole team. Doing that's more important than whether or not Manny plays SS or 3B next year.

[SportsGuy]

I think you're making a big deal about not much. It's not gonna hurt him to play 3B next year if that's what makes the team strongest

1) Hardy is signed for 2 more years, not just one. We can't assume the experiment of MM would last only 1 year. 2) I think what is best for the team is either move Hardy to second or trade him and use that money in other places...also acquire Headley for 3rd.

Hell, he could play all of next season and half of the season after that, and he could still take over SS while he's younger than Cal was when he moved from 3B to SS. Playing 3B early on didn't hurt Cal, and I don't see how it would hurt Manny either.

Stop bringing up Cal..Its an apples to oranges comp and Cal barely played third at the ML level until later in his career. 2) Manny is still developing at the SS position...to take away a few years of that development, especially at this stage in his career, is poor IMO..especially since he has work to do at that position.

And it's not like Cal is the only guy who changed positions and turned out great. Yount won his 1st MVP at SS, and then won his 2nd MVP in CF. Jackie Robinson was ROY at 1B and two years later was MVP at 2B. Pete Rose changed positions all the time. The Braves didn't decide what to do with Chipper until about a week before they brought him up for good. First he was gonna be SS, then they were gonna play him in CF, then at the last minute they put him at 3B, and then they still moved him around some later. All of that stuff was based on what their team needed, and it didn't stop great players from being great, and not only did it not interfere with their teams winning, it helped the teams win.

What the team needs is to get better while also looking out for the long term.

[Mackus]

I don't think playing Manny at 3B for all of next season is an inherently bad idea. I think that's a pretty weak argument to make. Ideally he'd probably be playing SS, but if we've got a guy who's already an excellent SS, I don't think keeping Manny at 3B will make him a worse SS in 2014 or 2015 when he finally moves over there.

On the other hand, I also have no issue with moving Hardy to 3B or 2B or trading him if the return is solid (would want MLB help, not prospects, since I think we'd get more value out of the ready-help than the prospects). If you can get a #3 SP for Hardy who's got a year or two left, that's a deal I make. Or if you can trade for another 3B, move Hardy or Machado to 2B, I'm fine with that, too.

I think the strongest argument towards trading Hardy would be if we have pretty severe payroll constraints. If Angelos only agrees to expanding to $85-90M, then I'm more inclined to look into dealing Hardy to clear his $7M off the books and hope to find a similarly valuable player at 2B or 3B for less money and then move Manny to SS.

[RShack]

Stop bringing up Cal..Its an apples to oranges comp and Cal barely played third at the ML level until later in his c

areer. 2) Manny is still developing at the SS position...to take away a few years of that development, especially at this stage in his career, is poor IMO..especially since he has work to do at that position.

Stop bring up Cal? It's apples and oranges?

I somehow thought you were a big Cal fan. But if you were, then you'd know that he played more 3B in the minors than he did SS... and for the 1st ~half of his ROY season, he played nothing but 3B... but then he somehow turned out to be a HOF SS anyway. Much in the same way that Manny has been playing wonderfully at 3B (even though he ~never played there before), Cal moved between 3B and SS without a hitch. Both of these guys just don't have much trouble adapting from one to the other.

I don't know where you get this bizarre idea that it will somehow harm Manny's "development" if he plays 3B for a while. Face it, you're just making that up based on nothing.

Now, I fully understand that *you* really, to want to make some trades and clear space for Manny to play SS. And I'm not saying DD won't do that, he might do that, beats me. But to claim it's gonna somehow hurt Manny's future if he doesn't is just silly.

It's also silly to claim that it will be easy to find a better left-side of the IF than Manny and Hardy playing where they are right now.

What the team needs is to get better while also looking out for the long term.

Well, gee, thanks... I never would have known that if you hadn't told me

Look, you can't just throw cliches around and pretend that somehow proves your point. If you have any reason whatsoever to claim that playing 3B for a while is gonna hurt Manny, I'd love to hear it. But so far you haven't provided one. I could be wrong, but I think that's because there just isn't one.

[SportsGuy]

[quote]I somehow thought you were a big Cal fan. But if you were, then you'd know that he played more 3B in the minors than he did SS... and for the 1st ~half of his ROY season, he played nothing but 3B... but then he somehow turned out to be a HOF SS anyway. Much in the same way that Manny has been playing wonderfully at 3B (even though he ~never played there before), Cal moved between 3B and SS without a hitch. Both of these guys just don't have much trouble adapting from one to the other[/quote]And NONE of this has anything to do with Manny. Its just you wanting to draw a comp between 2 tall Orioles playing the same position. Cal playing third in the majors for a few months is nothing compared to manny playing third for 2.5 years.

[quote]I don't know where you get this bizarre idea that it will somehow harm Manny's "development" if he plays 3B for a while. Face it, you're just making that up based on nothing. [/quote]I have NEVER said Manny will not be eventually fine. HOWEVER, if you have paid any attention, you know that Manny has work to do at SS and there is still some doubt about him being a SS long term. He is very young in his development and to take SS away from him for the next 2 years and then move him back there is just poor IMO. It may not harm him long term but its not going to help him either. He needs the reps at SS and hopefully he will be doing it for a contending team. Hardy isn't that great of an all around SS where you say, well this is no big deal. Manny's development is huge to the long term health of this organization.
[quote]Now, I fully understand that *you* really, to want to make some trades and clear space for Manny to play SS[/quote]Well, here in reality world, we understand the Orioles just don't spend the money the way we would like and since you have an in house SS replacement and maybe 1 player in the system who can fill 2nd or 3rd(Schoop), we have larger needs than a 7+ million dollar SS. Now, as I have said, if you want to move Hardy to second, I am all for that as well. [quote]But to claim it's gonna somehow hurt Manny's future if he doesn't is just silly. [/quote] And to claim that it doesn't set him back in his defensive development at SS is just dumb.

[quote]It's also silly to claim that it will be easy to find a better left-side of the IF than Manny and Hardy playing where they are right now.[/quote] Headley at third and manny at SS is better...and younger...and cheaper.
[quote]Well, gee, thanks... I never would have known that if you hadn't told me [/quote]I didn't think so.
[quote]Look, you can't just throw cliches around and pretend that somehow proves your point. If you have any reason whatsoever to claim that playing 3B for a while is gonna hurt Manny, I'd love to hear it. But so far you haven't provided one. I could be wrong, but I think that's because there just isn't one.[/quote]Can you provide me with one that says his defense at SS won't be hurt, whether it be short or long term, if you take him away from the position for the next 2 years?

What evidence have you shown? That Cal played 3rd in the majors for a few months and that didn't hurt him? Really? Thats all you have?

Cal said it took him 100 games to be comfortable at 3rd again.

So, let's say you could say that about Manny. That means, you aren't going to see a comfortable Manny at SS, for a full season, until 2016.

Personally, for me, I would rather see our franchise player at his long term position right now...as opposed to holding it off for a 30 y/o SS with a recent injury history.

This team needs to save some money somewhere to upgrade elsewhere...this is an area you can do that.

[RShack]

Headley at third and manny at SS is better.

SG, I never said it was impossible... I said it's not easy... and it isn't. Face it, Hardy and Manny where they are now is hard to match, much less improve on.

Now, as I said before, I don't know what DD is gonna do. And I'm certainly not against the idea of moves that make the team better. But to claim it's somehow dumb to maintain the strength we have on L side of the infield is a claim that just doesn't make sense.

You can often make good points... but when you do it by inserting nonsense about it's either your way or it's stupid, well, that just weakens your so-called argument. Which, by the way, you still haven't done a good job of re: the claim that it's bad to let Manny play 3B for a while...

ps: I don't mean to imply that you haven't gotten better since your, um, relocation. You have gotten much better about not making extreme claims that don't hold water. And that makes for much better quality over all. Just saying that you backslid on this one, that's all...

[SportsGuy]

SG, I never said it was impossible... I said it's not easy... and it isn't. Face it, Hardy and Manny where they are now is hard to match, much less improve on.

Now, as I said before, I don't know what DD is gonna do. And I'm certainly not against the idea of moves that make the team better. But to claim it's somehow dumb to maintain the strength we have on L side of the infield is a claim that just doesn't make sense.

You can often make good points... but when you do it by inserting nonsense about it's either your way or it's stupid, well, that just weakens your so-called argument. Which, by the way, you still haven't done a good job of re: the claim that it's bad to let Manny play 3B for a while...

ps: I don't mean to imply that you haven't gotten better since your, um, relocation. You have gotten much better about not making extreme claims that don't hold water. And that makes for much better quality over all. Just saying that you backslid on this one, that's all...

As if you aren't saying your way is the best.

Please, spare us all the reason YOU were relocated.

Headley is a better player than Hardy and MM is the long term answer at ss...and we could use the Hardy money elsewhere and players would be in there correct positions.

So yes, that is better than status quo.

And btw, I must have missed where you showed that playing Manny at third for 2.5 years won't hurt him. I like how you expect a standard from someone but don't live up to it yourself.

This isn't something that can be proved. It's an opinion and a preference on my part. I gave you my reasoning why I prefer it. If you don't like that, too bad. As I said, it's a preference.

As I said, he likely would be fine long term...but waiting until 2016 for him to be rel comfortable at SS isn't something I'm interested in.

Oh and btw, please spare me your subtle shots where you want to give the impression you are complementing me. I see right through it and if you want to tell me it's genuine, I won't believe you. So, let's just stick to the topic at hand and not go off on your little tangents that have nothing to do with baseball...we all know how good you are at those but let's save that for another site.

[DBean]

Arizona paper said that Hardy would be a good fit for the Diamondbacks at SS. Arizona does like the Oriole players. If the Orioles were actually serious about trading Hardy, what kind of package could the Orioles get in return for him?

http://www.mlbtrader...eter-hardy.html

[SportsGuy]

Arizona paper said that Hardy would be a good fit for the Diamondbacks at SS. Arizona does like the Oriole players. If the Orioles were actually serious about trading Hardy, what kind of package could the Orioles get in return for him?

http://www.mlbtrader...eter-hardy.html

Matt Davidson should be the target.

[Oriole85]

Arizona paper said that Hardy would be a good fit for the Diamondbacks at SS. Arizona does like the Oriole players. If the Orioles were actually serious about trading Hardy, what kind of package could the Orioles get in return for him?

http://www.mlbtrader...eter-hardy.html

Need starting pitching and corner infielders (that 3B we acquired from them didn't quite workout).

[BSLChrisStoner]

Hardy with a 4 for 5 tonight, including his 20th, and 21st homers, and 28th double. He knocked in 5.
His OPS is up to .689... let's see where he can finish with a hot couple of weeks.

He has done a good job on the home stand of going to RF.

[SportsGuy]

Hardy is the guy who stepped up for Nick tonight.

[Mike B]

JJ looks very comfortable tonight. He has the look of a player about to go on a streak. We really need that.

[Chris B]

Hardy is the guy who stepped up for Nick tonight.

They're going to need someone like that about every night. (Maybe not 2 HR, 5 RBI but someone stepping up offensively.)

[Chris B]

Hardy had another two hit ballgame tonight.

Brittany Ghiroli ‏@Britt_Ghiroli

Hardy's right middle finger --throwing hand-- is blown up. Started as a hangnail but was enough for Showalter to almost scratch him tonight.

Brittany Ghiroli ‏@Britt_Ghiroli

Hardy said he's had to grip the ball a little differently to throw the last two days. Thursdays off day should help.

[Tucker Blair]

was thinking a little about Hardy today:

Hardy is a mistake hitter, he rarely is given any good pitches to hit. Pitchers have thrown him in and out all year. Last night was a great example of that with his AB against Phelps.

He was thrown 5 balls, all out of the strike zone. Of course, Hardy's plate discipline is not the greatest in the world, so he swung at 3 of them. Luckily, Phelps followed with a hung slider in which he hit to the fence for the game-winning RBI.
The slider to Hardy is truly a death pitch on him. He simply does not make sound contact on this pitch at any time unless it is hung. Phelps had the right Idea last night but just did not execute.

Another trend I seem to notice is that pitcher's start out Hardy with a high fastball. Seems like they are going after that quick pop out.

I would love to see him lay off some more of those outside sliders that tail away from him. I think that sometimes when he is called out on the outside fastball, it is because he was expecting a ball to be thrown at him.

[SportsGuy]

A lot of people seem to assume hardy will bounce back offensively but this is a guy who, since 2009, has had 1 good year offensively. Last year, he had an 801 OPS. In 2 of the last 4 years, his OPS has been under 700 and in another year, it was barely over 700.

Now, he has still be valuable. His WAR this year was a solid 2.8 and it was 2.4 in 2010. So, he is still a valuable player because he is excellent defensively and has a lot more power than most SS.

But, is he really guaranteed to have a big bounce back year offensively in 2013? He had some injuries, have those taken anything out of him? He is 30 now, so he should still be ok for another few years but once MIers tend to get into that lower 30s area, a steep decline is certainly possible and this is a guy that has had his injury issues already. His LD% the last 3 years has been steady but its not that great. His walk rate is down.

However, on the bright side, his BABIP was unlucky in 2012 and some of his rates like contact rate, Ozone swing%, etc...are within his normal ranges.

3 of the last 4 years, we have seen his pitch value vs FBs in the negative. The one year it was positive, was last year.