414 replies to this topic

[You Play to Win the Game]

I kinda hope the O's make a more significant trade. I can only imagine how wild that trade thread will get!

 

Were you ever around the Hangout at all during the Tex saga, and/or the Bedard trade rumors? Talk about "wild". That's an understatement. We're talking multiple 500+ post threads in the same week on the same subject. Just unreal.

[Oriole85]

I kinda hope the O's make a more significant trade. I can only imagine how wild that trade thread will get!

Considering how worked up we get over a relatively minor deal, I think we can all agree this isn't a blockbuster one either way (or it doesn't appear that way right now) -- I can only imagine if got an ace and had to give up a lot of our farm system to do so.

[Oriole85]

The Orioles reportably refused to trade Delmonico three weeks ago. I wonder if one reason why they were willing to trade him now is because they signed Alvarez to a deal for 800k. If DD is willing and able to spend a few million in the international market to get a few good prospects becomes more palatable.

Also last year supposedly, and everyone tweeted Delmonico how much he meant to the org and how happy they were. I wish fans could seperate the person from the player sometimes. I know it's hard and I've fallen victim to that at some points.

[JeffLong]

I believe he said on Twitter it was fair to both sides, clearly a difference of opinion from yours in that 10% I suppose.

 

If your argument is anything can happen in a short series, are you saying teams shouldn't upgrade to win those short series? The better team should still win regardless of the amount. I wouldn't say it's a 50/50 proposition every time. I'd say for the short series, having a great 1-2 punch is very important, you don't need depth as much, there we can agree even if we have different conclusions. After that, you just need to win one more game and having that ace should help there.

 

We're in agreement on values, going both ways.

 

If K-Rod saved the 7th game of the WS in place of an injured or inefective Jim Johnson (complete hypothetical I know), that doesn't change your feelings on this?

 

Haha not at all!

[JeremyStrain]

I kinda hope the O's make a more significant trade. I can only imagine how wild that trade thread will get!

Considering how worked up we get over a relatively minor deal, I think we can all agree this isn't a blockbuster one either way (or it doesn't appear that way right now) -- I can only imagine if got an ace and had to give up a lot of our farm system to do so.

I guess my last attempt to explain why I'm so high on nicky. Go look at his stats and then go look up joey votto in the minors. Very similar tool sets similar progression. I wanted to see what he did in aa and see if he took that next step. Hes got the hit tool and batting eye to really develop and everyone (including me) thought votto would top out around 20 hr a year too.

But again...I'd have dealt him for a sp upgrade just not for a marginal bp upgrade.

[FlavaDave10]

Wow...I'm surprised by this... First of all, I thought they would get more for KRod.

Secondly, I'm surprised we would give up Delmonico here...However, maybe the Orioles think he has no position and his bat won't be that great as he advances and they are dealing him now before his value drops.

A lot of mixed opinions on him...I have to look into KRods numbers for this season but this is a we are going for it move...and I can respect that.

The question is, will we look back and regret it?

 

Delmonico's injury problems and lack of a position probably made the organization sour on him. Guy also has yet to hit above .250 in the minors. That's concerning. 

[SportsGuy]

Does he really have the hit tool though? Poor BA early on...still young though.

[Oriole85]

I guess my last attempt to explain why I'm so high on nicky. Go look at his stats and then go look up joey votto in the minors. Very similar tool sets similar progression. I wanted to see what he did in aa and see if he took that next step. Hes got the hit tool and batting eye to really develop and everyone (including me) thought votto would top out around 20 hr a year too.

But again...I'd have dealt him for a sp upgrade just not for a marginal bp upgrade.

Don't worry if he gets even close to Joey Votto levels, I'll give you all the accolades in the world. Is it possible, he'll be at that level, sure. The likelihood is very, very slim.

[FlavaDave10]

Does he really have the hit tool though? Poor BA early on...still young though.

 

Right around a .800 OPS for his career so far though. And I'm impressed with his plate patience, especially at his age. His rising K-rate was a red flag. 

[JeremyStrain]

Does he really have the hit tool though? Poor BA early on...still young though.

Yeah its there. Look at the walk to k ratio. Votto hit around .240-.250 at the same level but rebounded to hit .300 at aa. I think he's got a .280-.300 hit tool and that will ultimately decide things.

[FlavaDave10]

Yeah its there. Look at the walk to k ratio. Votto hit around .240-.250 at the same level but rebounded to hit .300 at aa. I think he's got a .280-.300 hit tool and that will ultimately decide things.

 

Votto had better plate discipline and had a real position. Votto is the exception, not the rule. Delmonico's rising K-rate is what really worried me. Something has to click for Delmonico as far as his bat that I have yet to see. 

[PD24]

This is where you are fundamentally wrong.

 

The focus should be on stockpiling value, at both the big league level and the minor league level. The best teams do this exceptionally well through a variety of ways (TB, TEX, STL, BOS).

 

What the O's have done here is given away value. I don't care if Delmonico ever plays a game in MLB. He's worth more as a prospect than 20 innings of any reliever. Klaw says it best:

 

 

This is also pretty much how I feel about it:

 

 

At the end of the day, the team should be looking for ways to add value in any way possible. What you're suggesting, that adding marginal wins in a "playoff season" is the #1 focus is exactly what lead to 15 years of mediocrity. The team said, who cares about value, we need wins now. They then tore apart the minors for those marginal wins and hurt the club's future.

The team should be looking for ways to help the team in 2013, but improve the team in 2014, 2015, etc as well. You do that by adding value. You don't see the Rays moving prospects for a guy that will "put them over the top" like this. In fact, they often do the opposite (e.g. Shields trade).

 

 

Peter, you're a smart guy and I respect the passion you have about all of this. You're coming off incredibly condescending and acting like you know better than everyone else. You don't have to agree with Jeremy or me about the trade and what the team should be doing. You should however treat us with respect even in the midst of an argument. I love this board because we can have conversations like this, but it needs to stay respectful (and that goes for everyone).

 

The Rays don't make moves like that because they can't afford to spend money on anyone, so they HAVE to win ONLY by building through their system. The Orioles aren't in that position. You mentioned Texas...they just gave up a very nice haul for 3 months of Matt Garza. You also mention the Red Sox. You must be forgetting about them giving up Gabbard, David Murphy, and Engel Beltre for 18.2 innings of Eric Gagne. Of course, the Red Sox were trying to win, and they actually won a World Series in 2007. You know, the trophy that they'll have for as long as the franchise exists? So no one mentions that trade. Rather, they just look at it as the normal type of trade a winning team makes to try to win.

 

You mention looking to help the team in 2013, but also looking to improve the team in 2014 and 2015. What's the point of looking to improve the team in 2014 and 2015, when in 2014 and 2015 you'll just want to look to 2015 and 2016? 

I get the notion of wanting to be consistently good and contending year to year rather than be a one year wonder. I'm all for that philosophy. But you have to improve the team when you have a chance to win a World Series, which the Orioles clearly do right now in 2013. 

 

You mention 2014 and 2015. You realize Delmonico won't help the Orioles in those years, right? Maybe the second half of 2015 if he progresses beautifully. 

 

Yet again, you are speaking as though you're operating making moves in a vacuum rather than as the GM of a team looking to win a World Series in less than 3 months. Delmonico, if he progresses and becomes a major leaguer, has 7 years under control vs less than 3 months of K-Rod. Sure, in a vacuum, if you think Delmonico will become that player, it can be argued he has more value. But Delmonico does NOTHING to help the team in 2013, and trading him DOES NOT hurt the Orioles in ANY WAY going forward. The only way it can be argued as a bad move IMO is if you think DD lost out on using Delmonico to get a better player. And that's where for me, trusting DD comes into play. He ain't stupid.

 

Not sure why you think I'm not debating with respect, but whatever...

[Tucker Blair]

Were you ever around the Hangout at all during the Tex saga, and/or the Bedard trade rumors? Talk about "wild". That's an understatement. We're talking multiple 500+ post threads in the same week on the same subject. Just unreal.

I have never posted there before.

Only have ever posted at the Sun and Orioles Nation

[You Play to Win the Game]

I have never posted there before.

Only have ever posted at the Sun and Orioles Nation

 

Good of you!

 

Either way, I'm sure the Sun or ON had crazy ass threads RE: Teix and Bedard, too. Those were some crazy times. Some people just would never ever let go of the reality that Teix was never coming here.

[Tucker Blair]

Good of you!

 

Either way, I'm sure the Sun or ON had crazy ass threads RE: Teix and Bedard, too. Those were some crazy times. Some people just would never ever let go of the reality that Teix was never coming here.

Well, the sun was borderline asinine at times lol

[Oriole85]

Votto had better plate discipline and had a real position. Votto is the exception, not the rule. Delmonico's rising K-rate is what really worried me. Something has to click for Delmonico as far as his bat that I have yet to see. 

Ding, ding, ding!

[FlavaDave10]

The Rays don't make moves like that because they can't afford to spend money on anyone, so they HAVE to win ONLY by building through their system. The Orioles aren't in that position. You mentioned Texas...they just gave up a very nice haul for 3 months of Matt Garza. You also mention the Red Sox. You must be forgetting about them giving up Gabbard, David Murphy, and Engel Beltre for 18.2 innings of Eric Gagne. Of course, the Red Sox were trying to win, and they actually won a World Series in 2007. You know, the trophy that they'll have for as long as the franchise exists? So no one mentions that trade. Rather, they just look at it as the normal type of trade a winning team makes to try to win.

 

You mention looking to help the team in 2013, but also looking to improve the team in 2014 and 2015. What's the point of looking to improve the team in 2014 and 2015, when in 2014 and 2015 you'll just want to look to 2015 and 2016? 

I get the notion of wanting to be consistently good and contending year to year rather than be a one year wonder. I'm all for that philosophy. But you have to improve the team when you have a chance to win a World Series, which the Orioles clearly do right now in 2013. 

 

You mention 2014 and 2015. You realize Delmonico won't help the Orioles in those years, right? Maybe the second half of 2015 if he progresses beautifully. 

 

Yet again, you are speaking as though you're operating making moves in a vacuum rather than as the GM of a team looking to win a World Series in less than 3 months. Delmonico, if he progresses and becomes a major leaguer, has 7 years under control vs less than 3 months of K-Rod. Sure, in a vacuum, if you think Delmonico will become that player, it can be argued he has more value. But Delmonico does NOTHING to help the team in 2013, and trading him DOES NOT hurt the Orioles in ANY WAY going forward. The only way it can be argued as a bad move IMO is if you think DD lost out on using Delmonico to get a better player. And that's where for me, trusting DD comes into play. He ain't stupid.

 

Not sure why you think I'm not debating with respect, but whatever...

 

 

This is where you are fundamentally wrong.

 

The focus should be on stockpiling value, at both the big league level and the minor league level. The best teams do this exceptionally well through a variety of ways (TB, TEX, STL, BOS).

 

What the O's have done here is given away value. I don't care if Delmonico ever plays a game in MLB. He's worth more as a prospect than 20 innings of any reliever. Klaw says it best:

 

 

This is also pretty much how I feel about it:

 

 

At the end of the day, the team should be looking for ways to add value in any way possible. What you're suggesting, that adding marginal wins in a "playoff season" is the #1 focus is exactly what lead to 15 years of mediocrity. The team said, who cares about value, we need wins now. They then tore apart the minors for those marginal wins and hurt the club's future.

The team should be looking for ways to help the team in 2013, but improve the team in 2014, 2015, etc as well. You do that by adding value. You don't see the Rays moving prospects for a guy that will "put them over the top" like this. In fact, they often do the opposite (e.g. Shields trade).

 

 

Peter, you're a smart guy and I respect the passion you have about all of this. You're coming off incredibly condescending and acting like you know better than everyone else. You don't have to agree with Jeremy or me about the trade and what the team should be doing. You should however treat us with respect even in the midst of an argument. I love this board because we can have conversations like this, but it needs to stay respectful (and that goes for everyone).

 

Both of you have very good points. Jeff, I do agree that the best way to have sustained success is to build through your farm system. Look at the depth that the Rangers and Cardinals have. They can trade away pretty good prospects and get away with it because of their depth. I'd LOVE for the Orioles to be able to have that kind of depth. 

 

On the other hand, Peter raises some good points-

1. Delmonico is about as far from a sure thing as possible right now. He has no real position and he has had trouble staying healthy. Not to mention his bat hasn't developed like it should have by now.

2. Chances are, even if Delmonico is a starting MLB player, he won't be an above average one. I can't even say if he will be one because he has no true position right now.

3. Yes, it's risky to trade Delmonico for someone like K-Rod, but these are the risks that come with being a contender. I bet the Rangers probably didn't want to include Olt and one of their top pitching prospects for Matt Garza. But they did it because it's a risk that Texas had to take if they want to win. 

 

I believe that building farm system depth is the most efficient way to have sustained success- you can develop your own players and you can trade for upgrades. Can't put into words how fantastic it feels to be having a discussion on if trading prospects for upgrades is worth it- means that the Orioles are in a position to do so. 

[SportsGuy]

Yeah its there. Look at the walk to k ratio. Votto hit around .240-.250 at the same level but rebounded to hit .300 at aa. I think he's got a .280-.300 hit tool and that will ultimately decide things.

This is deceiving...Votto also hit for a higher avg in lower levels.

Do like the OPS and plate discipline though...that's why I liked him so much.

But I do question if he struggles to hit for a good average now, will he struggle later and if so, will he even be able to advance?

[SportsGuy]

This is a good argument...you know why? No one is really wrong in anything they are saying.

[Oriole85]

I believe that building farm system depth is the most efficient way to have sustained success- you can develop your own players and you can trade for upgrades. Can't put into words how fantastic it feels to be having a discussion on if trading prospects for upgrades is worth it- means that the Orioles are in a position to do so. 

And that's one area every team should be at a relatively level playing field, financially speaking not brain-power. Not every team is going to be able to pull of big free agency signings. It will be interesting to see what the farm system looks like in 2-3 years under DD.