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EDIT: Baltimore Arena Renovation


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#321 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:09 AM

Those are probably also 2 people that can directly profit off of a new CC.

Anything they discuss is skewed imo.

That being said, there are obviously pros to doing it. But the article I pointed out also show the cons.

The CC will lose money. Will the city? Maybe, maybe not.

It's not a slam dunk though.

#322 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:27 AM

Chris, it sounds to me that you believe in trickle down economics

 

Tax breaks for the wealthiest individuals and that will enable growth? No... been proven consistently that doesn't work.

I believe Baltimore is more than the City itself, it's the Metro as an entirety. The social ills of the City, impact the region as a whole.

The strengths of the region are legitimate.... high median income, high education levels... but we have trouble articulating our strengths as a region, and we have trouble escaping the legitimate negative perceptions which exist about our City / Region.

We can't get past that until we overcome those issues. Those issues need to be combated. 

Since Baltimore (the City) has the limited tax base to call on, the most logical alternative imo is finding ways to bring people into the City...  with the City profiting there.

 

To go back to your quoted statement here, I can be talked into tax incentives for businesses to invest in the City..  they invest, more jobs...  more jobs = more people spending $ in the City, and more people moving into the City...   

 

City thrives, then the strengths of the Metro as a whole can really be touted.... and that will bring in even more people and investment. 



#323 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:49 AM

The city doesn't really have the room for some of the expansion you are even talking about.

It can be improved if the city/:state ever elect competent individuals to make decisions but since that will never happen, you have what you have.

I have no interest in having my money go to city programs that will continue to be failures.

#324 mweb08

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:53 AM

Chris...first off, as Rob pointed out, those people that made those presentations are likely rather biased. Of course they likely made some good points, but the link Rob posted has the basis of a very good counter argument to spending a ton on a new or upgraded convention center.

Unlike with the arena, I can see an argument for the convention center. It all boils down to how much of an added benefit would the city get out of a better convention center vs the current one that is booked pretty frequently. I'm skeptical that it would be worth a huge investment, but again, I am open to info that suggests otherwise.

I just don't see it with an arena though. The current arena, despite your hate for it, does pretty well for itself from what I understand. It still brings in a lot of bands, comedians, and other things along with the minor sports teams / events. So what benefit does the city get out of the hundreds of millions it would cost to build a new one? Occasional higher end basketball games/tournaments and maybe the aforementioned occasional Wizards and Capitals games. What else? I just can't envision it being worth it unless there's significant private investment.

As for a grander vision, I can get behind that, but hundreds of millions of dollars for an arena and convention center isn't what I'd support. I can get behind transforming a section of downtown into a great city park. I can get behind a significant upgrade to public transportation. I can get behind some investments in enhancing our tourist attractions / places for local people to enjoy (inner harbor, aquarium, zoo, museums, parks, etc). I'm open to other ideas as well, I just don't think the new arena and convention center does much for the actual residents of the city and don't see them as a wise investment, again, especially in the case of the arena.
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#325 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:55 AM

I do agree than a new CC makes more sense than an arena,

I see very little benefit to an arena.

#326 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:02 PM

This is like Rob and Mike on their faux "Message Board Wars" podcast. Weird to see such agreement on the board.



#327 bnickle

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:20 PM


This is like Rob and Mike on their faux "Message Board Wars" podcast. Weird to see such agreement on the board.

Should have been a political podcast. That would've made it a war. I always thought Rob should have gone straight shtick and argued against Weber on everything. You get Mike riled up and it becomes entertaining.

#328 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:53 PM

This is like Rob and Mike on their faux "Message Board Wars" podcast. Weird to see such agreement on the board.


Even weirder when you consider Mike has me on ignore

#329 RShack

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:26 PM

Tax breaks for the wealthiest individuals and that will enable growth? No... been proven consistently that doesn't work.

I believe Baltimore is more than the City itself, it's the Metro as an entirety. The social ills of the City, impact the region as a whole.

The strengths of the region are legitimate.... high median income, high education levels... but we have trouble articulating our strengths as a region, and we have trouble escaping the legitimate negative perceptions which exist about our City / Region.

We can't get past that until we overcome those issues. Those issues need to be combated. 

Since Baltimore (the City) has the limited tax base to call on, the most logical alternative imo is finding ways to bring people into the City...  with the City profiting there.

 

To go back to your quoted statement here, I can be talked into tax incentives for businesses to invest in the City..  they invest, more jobs...  more jobs = more people spending $ in the City, and more people moving into the City...   

 

City thrives, then the strengths of the Metro as a whole can really be touted.... and that will bring in even more people and investment. 

 

The core problem is that the City is on its own... what's needed is some form of regional gov't... but the people in the County would scream bloody murder... because they're short-sighted and selfish...

 

Hell, even my Dad who was a hard core Republican (until the Cheney gov't made him rebel) could see that it was both unfair and stupid for the County to get all the benefits of the City without having to pay a dime for it...


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#330 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:14 AM

Never really thought of it that way. Really good point Shack.

#331 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:36 AM

Never really thought of it that way. Really good point Shack.

 

It's a great point, and one I've brought up regularly for the last decade (and numerous times in this thread).  Baltimore's one of the lone major cities not incorporated into the larger county. Several major cities are incorporated into several counties.

 

But while it makes sense logically, it's a political non-starter.    Might be an easier pill to swallow for some if the entire Metro (Anne Arundel, City, County, Carroll, Harford, Howard) were merged into one 'Baltimore' ...  same tax rates  across the board (would need to be low as an incentive), pooling of resources, etc...  but good luck. 

 

Would be interesting though... counted as one city, it'd be somewhere around the 3rd to 5th largest City in the Country, and easily one of the most affluent. All of the negative numbers which exist about Baltimore currently would be mitigated (and perceptions would be changed). With a combined focus of everyone having the same goals (quality of life, bringing in business)... I believe what could be achieved would be substantial.

 

Since this is a pipe dream, to me the City has to think of other ways to generate revenue... so they are better able to address the issues which exist... so that they can lower their taxes... which will help encourage people and businesses to move in... which will help create further revenue to further address the issues which exist.

 

It becomes very circular imo.

 

 

 

Mike, you mentioned green space.....   I could totally get on-board with a plan like Dallas has:
http://www.businessi...project-2016-12

 

That's impressive.
 



#332 mweb08

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:43 AM

Yep, I have seen those plans before and it is impressive.

#333 mweb08

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:28 AM

Not sure on the cost of this or the feasibility of it, but one ambitious project would be an elevated train/park along Pratt connecting east and west Baltimore. Maybe it would go from the B&O Railroad Museum to Patterson Park. A monorail could be considered opposed to a regular train.

While providing public transportation over the area with the worst traffic in the city, this could also be an elevated park, which is becoming popular.

Now many of these elevated parks are repurposed elevated rail lines, but this would combine the two. It could in addition to the tracks, have green space like the High Line in NYC and walking/running/biking paths.

This would be great for locals imo and would also be good for tourism. But again, the price tag would be a huge factor. Based on what I looked at, it would likely cost in the ballpark of an arena, but federal funding could be possible. With either project, the possibility of private funding would exist, although my idea would be more likely to bring in pure donations. There's probably plenty of other issues with the implementation of such an idea, but if could be done right, I'd take this or a great more conventional downtown city park over an arena. I would guess that most Baltimore residents would as well, but people outside the city, especially sports fans, would likely prefer the arena.



#334 mweb08

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 10:34 AM

The debate over Camden Yards' impact: http://www.baltimore...0331-story.html

#335 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 03:44 PM

Baltimore Sun: Plank, Leonsis and an arena - a relationship worth watching 

 

I'm not really a fan of Leonsis trying to expand his influence into Baltimore. Not because I think he's a bad guy with nefarious motives. He's not. But I do believe he views Baltimore as little more than a suburb of DC, rather than its own city with its own identity and characteristics. Any development Leonsis leads in Baltimore is probably just going to seem like DC's sloppy-seconds.


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#336 NewMarketSean

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 03:48 PM

Maybe he's planting the seeds necessary to move both teams to Baltimore one day.  :mrgreen:


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#337 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 03:56 PM

Maybe he's planting the seeds necessary to move both teams to Baltimore one day.  :mrgreen:

 

Verizon Center opened in what....1998 or so? Seems like 20 years is about all the time an arena/stadium gets before the owner starts asking for a new one.



#338 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 02:16 PM

BBJ: Future of arena, Convention Center and State Center will all be considered in new studies
http://www.bizjourna...u&ed=2017-05-04



#339 Chris B

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 02:38 PM

Studies, studies, studies...



#340 NewMarketSean

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 03:02 PM

City does love itself some studies.
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