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EDIT: Baltimore Arena Renovation


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#301 RShack

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:52 AM

Is there an arena in the US that has done anything like this? I can't think of one.

 

Nope.   Just like nobody did an OPACY until there was OPACY... then everybody copied it...

 

The problem with doing an arena is that you need to have a huge old brick building to start with, and those are hard to come by....


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#302 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 11:12 AM

Well if at some point it seems like it likely, then they could reconsider. Not the other way around.

Besides, I'm not a fan of public money funding stadiums/arenas for the most part.

 

This. It's silly, IMO, to talk about public funding of a Baltimore arena with no pro sports teams to host, when you are looking at the issues facing education, crime and poverty in the city. Which, BTW, if the quality of life in Baltimore was raised significantly, maybe there would be more of a demand for professional sports entertainment in the city. Misappropriating public funding to make the rich richer is only going to make the underlying issue as to why Baltimore can't support this even larger.


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#303 SportsGuy

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:08 PM

Baltimore blew up because of OPACY. The Ravens probably aren't here without OPACY. Many restaurants and hotels wouldn't be here if it weren't for OPACY.

I don't think an arena does that. I also don't think this city can support an NHL or NBA team.

Yes, you could get a lot of events such as concerts, NCAA tourney games, etc...but is that worth the public paying for it?

I don't know...I don't see it being something that brings in way more jobs, does amazing things for the city, etc...



#304 NewMarketSean

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

That's why it was a mistake not to jump on the Hackerman deal when he was offering to fund a portion of the convention center/arena plan. But the city dragged their feet and Hackerman passed away.

 

As as for the city funding projects, they've wasted much more than what it would cost to build an arena and the positives that come along with that. And throwing more money at the city's problems re: schools and crime isn't going to fix them. Now they're losing conventions, and they need to make a decision on the future of Preakness which is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars to keep at Pimlico.

 

Baltimore has a problem when it comes to these things. They couldn't find a way to build good transit and they're stuck with a 60 year old arena. Hell, they couldn't even connect Route 70 to downtown Baltimore.

 

We need to come to grips with Baltimore being a second, maybe even third-rate city when it comes to infrastructure and civic arenas and such...and the funny thing is many of those third rate cities have newer, nicer and bigger arenas than we do.

 

Thank God for OPACY and M&T Bank stadium. Without them, this city would be in deep shit.


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#305 SportsGuy

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:38 PM

I'm not really for the money being pissed away into things that will never get better either.

I would rather just keep my money and use it for my family than an arena or other things that will never get better.

#306 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:41 PM

A new Arena with expanded Convention space (and the convention space is first if it is either / or, but it should be in conjunction) is an absolute must have. Not a luxury, a must have.


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#307 SportsGuy

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:16 PM

A must? Is the city going to fail if it doesn't get built?

#308 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:41 PM

A must? Is the city going to fail if it doesn't get built?

 

Increased Convention Center space is a complete must.  It's incredibly imperative.  An Arena should go hand-in-hand there, but w/e.



#309 SportsGuy

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:18 PM

Why? What is going to come to the convention center that is so imperative?

#310 Mike in STL

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:45 PM

BBJ: Leonsis: Caps, Wizards would play more games in Baltimore if there was a new arena
http://www.bizjourna...u&ed=2017-03-23



That's easy to say when there is no new arena ever coming here.
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#311 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:51 PM

Why? What is going to come to the convention center that is so imperative?


Conventions. We have fallen somewhere around 80-100th Nationally in convention center space...this is a tremendous detriment. Prevents us from attracting larger conventions...which are huge economic drivers for regions as a whole.

#312 SportsGuy

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:13 PM

http://www.stltoday....dbd2f2fb87.html

#313 RShack

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:43 PM

This. It's silly, IMO, to talk about public funding of a Baltimore arena with no pro sports teams to host, when you are looking at the issues facing education, crime and poverty in the city. Which, BTW, if the quality of life in Baltimore was raised significantly, maybe there would be more of a demand for professional sports entertainment in the city. Misappropriating public funding to make the rich richer is only going to make the underlying issue as to why Baltimore can't support this even larger.

 

I have no strong opinion about whether they should build one or not... but the case for doing it should not be based on sports teams... it should be based on whether it's good in general to have a modern arena... just like if the gov't builds a road or a dam or whatever... not everybody has to use it or like it for it to be a good thing for the community in general...

 

The fact that we don't want the gov't subsidizing rich guys should not, in and of itself, sink an arena plan... or be the basis for floating one... it should be weighed without the possibility of getting a sports franchise having any weight at all...  the only time that should matter in any way is if you're deciding how many seats it should have...


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#314 mweb08

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:58 PM

That's why it was a mistake not to jump on the Hackerman deal when he was offering to fund a portion of the convention center/arena plan. But the city dragged their feet and Hackerman passed away.

 

As as for the city funding projects, they've wasted much more than what it would cost to build an arena and the positives that come along with that. And throwing more money at the city's problems re: schools and crime isn't going to fix them. Now they're losing conventions, and they need to make a decision on the future of Preakness which is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars to keep at Pimlico.

 

Baltimore has a problem when it comes to these things. They couldn't find a way to build good transit and they're stuck with a 60 year old arena. Hell, they couldn't even connect Route 70 to downtown Baltimore.

 

We need to come to grips with Baltimore being a second, maybe even third-rate city when it comes to infrastructure and civic arenas and such...and the funny thing is many of those third rate cities have newer, nicer and bigger arenas than we do.

 

Thank God for OPACY and M&T Bank stadium. Without them, this city would be in deep shit.

 

I don't think M&T Bank has much to do with the city's well being.

 

As far as money going to schools and crime, well yeah, more money isn't a solution in itself, but being able to retain a reasonable amount of funding is paramount to preventing those things from getting substantially worse. There is just no way to reasonably justify spending the money on an arena over those things and infrastructure and various other things the city could use IMO. I get why someone from outside the city and/or someone that isn't impacted much if at all by other issues in the city would prioritize an arena, but it doesn't make sense for the city IMO. An arena is just not all that significant when it doesn't come with a likelihood of a major pro team and doesn't alter the non sports entertainment options all that much. 


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#315 mweb08

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:11 PM

Increased Convention Center space is a complete must.  It's incredibly imperative.  An Arena should go hand-in-hand there, but w/e.

 

I know I'm Mr. Semantics and all, but the word must is not being used correctly here. 



#316 NewMarketSean

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 05:57 AM

That's why it was a mistake not to jump on the Hackerman deal when he was offering to fund a portion of the convention center/arena plan. But the city dragged their feet and Hackerman passed away.   As as for the city funding projects, they've wasted much more than what it would cost to build an arena and the positives that come along with that. And throwing more money at the city's problems re: schools and crime isn't going to fix them. Now they're losing conventions, and they need to make a decision on the future of Preakness which is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars to keep at Pimlico.   Baltimore has a problem when it comes to these things. They couldn't find a way to build good transit and they're stuck with a 60 year old arena. Hell, they couldn't even connect Route 70 to downtown Baltimore.   We need to come to grips with Baltimore being a second, maybe even third-rate city when it comes to infrastructure and civic arenas and such...and the funny thing is many of those third rate cities have newer, nicer and bigger arenas than we do.   Thank God for OPACY and M&T Bank stadium. Without them, this city would be in deep shit.
  I don't think M&T Bank has much to do with the city's well being.   As far as money going to schools and crime, well yeah, more money isn't a solution in itself, but being able to retain a reasonable amount of funding is paramount to preventing those things from getting substantially worse. There is just no way to reasonably justify spending the money on an arena over those things and infrastructure and various other things the city could use IMO. I get why someone from outside the city and/or someone that isn't impacted much if at all by other issues in the city would prioritize an arena, but it doesn't make sense for the city IMO. An arena is just not all that significant when it doesn't come with a likelihood of a major pro team and doesn't alter the non sports entertainment options all that much. 
The area around the stadiums is turning over from abandoned warehouses to bars, restaurants, apartments, casinos, etc. that likely doesn't happen without the two stadiums imo. And it spread further out to SoBo, west Baltimore and downtown. Without the stadiums, and the sports teams that play in them, I can't imagine what Baltimore would look like. Probably a huge Wilmington without the credit card company presence. Much less of a reason for people to live and visit there.
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#317 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:12 AM

That goes back to oPaCY. OPACY is to thank for all of it.

I don't think an arena/convention center has that impact.

#318 mweb08

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:26 AM

That's why it was a mistake not to jump on the Hackerman deal when he was offering to fund a portion of the convention center/arena plan. But the city dragged their feet and Hackerman passed away.
 
As as for the city funding projects, they've wasted much more than what it would cost to build an arena and the positives that come along with that. And throwing more money at the city's problems re: schools and crime isn't going to fix them. Now they're losing conventions, and they need to make a decision on the future of Preakness which is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars to keep at Pimlico.
 
Baltimore has a problem when it comes to these things. They couldn't find a way to build good transit and they're stuck with a 60 year old arena. Hell, they couldn't even connect Route 70 to downtown Baltimore.
 
We need to come to grips with Baltimore being a second, maybe even third-rate city when it comes to infrastructure and civic arenas and such...and the funny thing is many of those third rate cities have newer, nicer and bigger arenas than we do.
 
Thank God for OPACY and M&T Bank stadium. Without them, this city would be in deep shit.

 
I don't think M&T Bank has much to do with the city's well being.
 
As far as money going to schools and crime, well yeah, more money isn't a solution in itself, but being able to retain a reasonable amount of funding is paramount to preventing those things from getting substantially worse. There is just no way to reasonably justify spending the money on an arena over those things and infrastructure and various other things the city could use IMO. I get why someone from outside the city and/or someone that isn't impacted much if at all by other issues in the city would prioritize an arena, but it doesn't make sense for the city IMO. An arena is just not all that significant when it doesn't come with a likelihood of a major pro team and doesn't alter the non sports entertainment options all that much. 


The area around the stadiums is turning over from abandoned warehouses to bars, restaurants, apartments, casinos, etc. that likely doesn't happen without the two stadiums imo. And it spread further out to SoBo, west Baltimore and downtown.

Without the stadiums, and the sports teams that play in them, I can't imagine what Baltimore would look like. Probably a huge Wilmington without the credit card company presence. Much less of a reason for people to live and visit there.


I think the impact of the stadiums is being overstated, but the credit the stadiums do get should be extremely weighted toward OPACY.

An arena, especially one without the likelihood of a major pro sports team residing in it, doesn't make fiscal sense for the city considering the opportunity cost.

#319 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

The opportunity cost imo is not creating a additonal convention center space and arena.

With Baltimore not incorporated into the surrounding County you have a limited tax base.

With a limited tax base, the City has inflated property taxes etc to try and obtain the funds necessary to operate.

You get a new CC + Arena..you attract larger conventions and events to the City. More people visit. More people spend. More people come back. Property taxes go down as revenues increase. More people move in.

Dont want to do that...and want to utilize those would be dollars to schools and combating social ills? I can get behind that.

For all my love of this area...what frustrates me most is our seeming inability to walk and chew gum at the same time. What i mean by that is you see other areas seemingly have larger visions and plans and they just move forward.

In Baltimore it feels like instead of asking "What if?", we just collectively shake our heads and say "Nope, not possible."

Thats why I love UA so much. They are leading by example...showing what can be accomplished with investing and vision.


Based on my day job and networking group, I was able to land Greater Baltimore Committee President Don Fry for our January event...he laid out in his speech to our members how the convention center limitations were hurting and would continue to grow. Yesterday I was at a Business Journal event where it came up again with Terry Hasseltine (Executive Director of the Maryland Stadium Authority) stating that its imperative, and pointing out that the spaces are needed together to work in-conjunction.



#320 SportsGuy

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:07 AM

Chris, it sounds to me that you believe in trickle down economics




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