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#461 CantonJester

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 03:20 PM

He was examined immediately Sunday. By a 3rd party doc.  And cleared. 

 

LOL he was also cleared last night to fly home in a pressurized cabin 30,000 feet in the sky. That doesn’t mean correct decisions were made in either instance. 



#462 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 04:18 PM

LOL he was also cleared last night to fly home in a pressurized cabin 30,000 feet in the sky. That doesn’t mean correct decisions were made in either instance. 


Well... outside of having a 3rd party doctor that provides immediate concussion protocol as negotiated between the League and the Players Association... what is it you think the league needs to do? 

 

A supposed 3rd party evaluated him, said he was good to return Sunday.
Now if that 3rd party isn't a 3rd party... yep, that's an issue. 

But the doc provided an evaluation and cleared him.... so what else is the league supposed to do there?

 

And then with him being cleared to fly home...  well he went to a hospital and was immediately released... and cleared to fly.... so what are you saying there...   what tells you that isn't the correct decision?


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#463 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 04:44 PM

We've become conditioned to accept that, generally, head/brain trauma injuries are more serious than they appear. So when we see someone stagger off the field in an obvious haze, go back into the game, play again four days later, get his head slammed to the turf to where his extremities seize up, then we are naturally going to assume something is badly amiss with whoever/however the call was made to let him keep playing. I'm not trying to play armchair neurosurgeon, but what we saw goes against everything we've been told the NFL is trying to mitigate.

 

I'm reminded of that time that Tony Siragusa was strapped down and carted off the field with an apparent neck-spine injury, taken to UMAB, then some time later comes trotting out of the tunnel and goes back into the game. Of course that was a different era, and the people in the stadium went nuts cheering him on.



#464 russsnyder

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 04:53 PM

I think having these guys play four days after a game on Sunday is barbaric. I haven't seen the play ftom last night and i have no reason to watch it. I know Tua was banged up Sunday and he probably should not have been playing last night. I hope the young man recovers fully.
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#465 Mackus

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 05:21 PM


Well... outside of having a 3rd party doctor that provides immediate concussion protocol as negotiated between the League and the Players Association... what is it you think the league needs to do?

A supposed 3rd party evaluated him, said he was good to return Sunday.
Now if that 3rd party isn't a 3rd party... yep, that's an issue.

But the doc provided an evaluation and cleared him.... so what else is the league supposed to do there?

And then with him being cleared to fly home... well he went to a hospital and was immediately released... and cleared to fly.... so what are you saying there... what tells you that isn't the correct decision?

This is all fair but on the other side I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the NFL's concussion protocol, including the immediate judgement of independent game-day neurologists, is pretty ripe for abuse.

The hospital wouldn't be particularly vulnerable to influence from the league or team, but a hospital isn't going to keep someone for a concussion who wants to be released and has responsible parties to take them home or wherever. They certainly aren't going to keep him until he no longer has a concussion or any symptoms. Him getting out of the hospital quickly doesn't tell us that he should've been cleared to play in the game in the first place, which is the part for the process that needs the scrutiny.

#466 CantonJester

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 05:25 PM


Well... outside of having a 3rd party doctor that provides immediate concussion protocol as negotiated between the League and the Players Association... what is it you think the league needs to do? 

 

A supposed 3rd party evaluated him, said he was good to return Sunday.
Now if that 3rd party isn't a 3rd party... yep, that's an issue. 

But the doc provided an evaluation and cleared him.... so what else is the league supposed to do there?

 

And then with him being cleared to fly home...  well he went to a hospital and was immediately released... and cleared to fly.... so what are you saying there...   what tells you that isn't the correct decision?

 

I'm not sure if you're paid to be a mouthpiece for the Ravens or the NFL, but it's not my job to know what enhancements to the concussion protocol needs to be made, except to say that it's clearly not enough. The question that should be asked is whether or not he was given a concussion test last Sunday. My guess is Tua lied about his symptoms. Hell, they all lie about their injuries. We all saw him crumple to the ground. Once he did that, the bar should be to prove he does not have a concussion rather than play whack a mole with a patient. To do that, he would've needed an MRI. Now, compounding that medical negligence is the short week, which allowed a borderline dirty play to cause his concussion from last Sunday into a significantly worse one. 

 

 

Oh, and why concussed people should not be flying


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#467 russsnyder

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 05:33 PM

I'm not sure if you're paid to be a mouthpiece for the Ravens or the NFL, but it's not my job to know what enhancements to the concussion protocol needs to be made, except to say that it's clearly not enough. The question that should be asked is whether or not he was given a concussion test last Sunday. My guess is Tua lied about his symptoms. Hell, they all lie about their injuries. We all saw him crumple to the ground. Once he did that, the bar should be to prove he does not have a concussion rather than play whack a mole with a patient. To do that, he would've needed an MRI. Now, compounding that medical negligence is the short week, which allowed a borderline dirty play to cause his concussion from last Sunday into a significantly worse one.


Oh, and why concussed people should not be flying.

The decisions that the NFL and the Dolphins have. Been making with Tua seem to look worse by the minute. That article you posted was very interesting. Too bad you didn't email to the Dolphins' docs last evening.
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#468 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 05:59 PM

I'm not sure if you're paid to be a mouthpiece for the Ravens or the NFL, but it's not my job to know what enhancements to the concussion protocol needs to be made, except to say that it's clearly not enough. The question that should be asked is whether or not he was given a concussion test last Sunday. My guess is Tua lied about his symptoms. Hell, they all lie about their injuries. We all saw him crumple to the ground. Once he did that, the bar should be to prove he does not have a concussion rather than play whack a mole with a patient. To do that, he would've needed an MRI. Now, compounding that medical negligence is the short week, which allowed a borderline dirty play to cause his concussion from last Sunday into a significantly worse one. 

 

 

Oh, and why concussed people should not be flying


I've now told you 3 times he was given and passed a concussion test last Sunday by a 3rd party doctor.  

So you think when he passed the agreed upon protocol, he should have been held out further for his own good. Okay.  That's fine.  But I have no problem with the Dolphins putting him back in, once he had cleared the testing. 


And regarding concussed people flying...  he was at a hospital...  a hospital I'm guessing not funded by the NFL....  and they immediately dismissed him and cleared him to fly.   So what should Tua or the Dolphins do there?  "Well these docs have looked at Tua and cleared him to fly, but here's an article saying he shouldn't."  



#469 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:22 PM

My general take, it's a dangerous, physical game. Injuries happen. Doesn't make it nefarious.

He got hurt Sunday, he was immediately placed in protocol and passed by a 3rd party.

If the 3rd party isn't a true 3rd party, that's a problem.

If the 3rd party can't determine the player is lying, that's a problem.

If the team leans on the 3rd party, thats a problem.

But if it's on the up and the 3rd party clears...then it's not on a bunch of football coaches to overrule a doctor and say, "Nah, we know better."

He was cleared, so he was put back in as he should have been.

I do think Thursday games are a tough ask on the players.

I do think FieldTurf should be removed.

He was cleared to return Sunday, so no issue with him playing last night. Injuries happen.

Absolutely nothing on the Dolphins about flying him home. It's not like he had to be on that flight. It's also not like he would have been on the flight if the hospital didn't clear and release him.

#470 mweb08

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:44 PM

If the testing immediately clears a guy that almost wobbled to the ground when returning to the huddle after his head violently hit the ground, then that testing is probably BS.

#471 CantonJester

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:13 PM


I've now told you 3 times he was given and passed a concussion test last Sunday by a 3rd party doctor.  

So you think when he passed the agreed upon protocol, he should have been held out further for his own good. Okay.  That's fine.  But I have no problem with the Dolphins putting him back in, once he had cleared the testing. 


And regarding concussed people flying...  he was at a hospital...  a hospital I'm guessing not funded by the NFL....  and they immediately dismissed him and cleared him to fly.   So what should Tua or the Dolphins do there?  "Well these docs have looked at Tua and cleared him to fly, but here's an article saying he shouldn't."  

 

No, he was observed for concussion symptoms, He wasn't given an MRI at halftime. They simply changed the injury from head injury to back injury to you know, expedite things. And the reason they did that was because he already exhibited concussion symptoms when he hit his head, then grabbed his head, stumbled, and then fell down. That is what you could call a medically unethical thing to do. It's why the NFLPA is investigating the Miami Dolphins coaches and medical staff.

 

 

And who said a doctor cleared him to fly? Do you have a source for that? Actually, that bit is going to be reviewed too. 



#472 CantonJester

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:22 PM

The decisions that the NFL and the Dolphins have. Been making with Tua seem to look worse by the minute. That article you posted was very interesting. Too bad yoy didn't email to the Dolphins' docs last evening.

 

It seems to me the whole process is geared to get the player back into the action ASAP, and they were even willing to redefine what they saw with their eyes once they saw an opportunity to do so. What should occur is once a player collapses like he did this past Sunday, he should require a brain scan to get back onto the field. 


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#473 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:55 PM

I'm not sure if you're paid to be a mouthpiece for the Ravens or the NFL, but it's not my job to know what enhancements to the concussion protocol needs to be made, except to say that it's clearly not enough. The question that should be asked is whether or not he was given a concussion test last Sunday. My guess is Tua lied about his symptoms. Hell, they all lie about their injuries. We all saw him crumple to the ground. Once he did that, the bar should be to prove he does not have a concussion rather than play whack a mole with a patient. To do that, he would've needed an MRI. Now, compounding that medical negligence is the short week, which allowed a borderline dirty play to cause his concussion from last Sunday into a significantly worse one.


Oh, and why concussed people should not be flying.


This is completely unnecessary.

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

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#474 CantonJester

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:59 PM

This is completely unnecessary.

 

He was taking up for the establishment that clearly showed cracks in its approach to dealing with traumatic brain injury.

 

Spare me the histrionics. 



#475 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 11:41 PM

Given their track record with head injuries, no team or the league in general deserve any benefit of the doubt, ever IMO. That’s permanently lost.

#476 mdrunning

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 12:09 AM

Bottom line is, if the NFL, its teams and the players' union were truly concerned about player safety, there'd be no such thing as Thursday night games.


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#477 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 12:33 AM

He was taking up for the establishment that clearly showed cracks in its approach to dealing with traumatic brain injury.

Spare me the histrionics.

He has an opinion. So do you. Both are reasonably grounded. The only one tossing out histrionics is you.
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There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

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"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

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#478 CantonJester

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 01:00 AM

Given their track record with head injuries, no team or the league in general deserve any benefit of the doubt, ever IMO. That’s permanently lost.

 

Seriously. If the Dolphins seriously evaluated Tua each day since the "back" injury on Sunday, then why did they rush to get him back into that game? That tells me they tried to beat the system, but knew he was probably concussed anyway. So what gives? 

 

Bottom line is, if the NFL, its teams and the players' union were truly concerned about player safety, there'd be no such thing as Thursday night games.

 

100%.

 

 

 

He has an opinion. So do you. Both are reasonably grounded. The only one tossing out histrionics is you.

 

No, he's parroting the NFL's line. It's hogwash. Buy him a round if you like at happy hour, but the guy's way off here. 



#479 hallas

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 01:19 AM

I think the Fins are more or less acting in good faith. They certainly don't want to risk their QB and turn him into Kurt Warner where he gets knocked out every other game because a feather hit his helmet.

I think the thing muddling the issue is that Tua had a pre-existing back injury. If he didn't have that existing injury I don't think the neurologist would have cleared him. I also think that common sense should have prevailed and they should have held him out as a precautionary measure because of the stumble, even with the back issue.

It's pretty clear to me that Tua had a concussion and then passed whatever neuro evaluations they give, which isn't uncommon. That's not to say that the tests are useless, but we don't have a scan to reliably test for concussions and there are going to be gaps as to what they can catch.

It's clear that the protocol needs to be changed to err much further on the side of caution. You should get a mandatory week off any time you enter the concussion protocol, and the independent neurologist needs to ignore things like past injury when deciding whether to clear a player. The default assumption should be that any symptom of neurological problems is a result of the concussion, even in the presence of other explanations.

#480 cprenegade

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 01:19 AM

I'm sure the NFL will re-evaluate the concussion protocols based on Tua's last two games, but short of declaring all players whose head slams the turf out for the rest of the game until an MRI can be given, I'm not sure what else they can do.  A third party doctor already gives an evaluation.  But that evaluation means little without an MRI that can actually see if any damage occurred.  

 

I'm sure you could mandate a booth doctor whose job it is to declare a player out because of potential injury, but do you really want to give that much power over a game's outcome to one person?  It's a violent game.  The NFL has had many opportunities to change the design of their helmets and they have refused most of them because they are very expensive and not very eye appealing.  That may be more of a problem then their concussion protocol.  






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