114 replies to this topic

[Hooded Viper]

Why would a GM not like spending money to fill out his team for a possible championship run? It’s nonsensical. If your owner is willing to spend the money then it makes no sense that any GM would say “no no no, we aren’t going to do that.”

[jamesdean]

First of all, we have no idea how much money is being offered by the Orioles to free agents. Boras said yesterday that Baltimore has been agressive in pursuing his clients. And if they were deliberately low balling just for appearance sake, you best believe Boras would have said that. Ultimately, a player is usually going to take the most money but like in the case of Corbin Burnes, maybe he wants the money and a specific area of the Country to play in. The days of Camden Yards being this jewel to attract players is long gone with so many similar stadiums now. Baltimore is going to be a tough sell for the elite players but I think its irresponsible reporting to just assume Elias has no interest in signing free agents. Especially because one "source" said so.

[glenn__davis]

Why would a GM not like spending money to fill out his team for a possible championship run? It’s nonsensical. If your owner is willing to spend the money then it makes no sense that any GM would say “no no no, we aren’t going to do that.”

 

Don't forget that when Angelos was here, Elias repeatedly went out of his way to say that ownership had indicated that the money would be there if they chose to use it.  The fact he chose to use so little of it said, IMO, more about Elias than people thought, and I never thought that just because Rubenstein was here, suddenly that would change.

 

I think he truly thinks FA is a bad use of resources.  Honestly I agree with him about 90%, but I think there are times where you have to overspend knowing that it's overspending.  I'm not sure he has that in him.

[Mackus]

Boras said yesterday that Baltimore has been agressive in pursuing his clients. And if they were deliberately low balling just for appearance sake, you best believe Boras would have said that.

Pretty sure Boras said similar last year. He's only ever going to say something in hopes of if benefitting his clients (and himself). If teams think the O's are also involved, they'll have to pay more. Don't think we should be looking to Boras to find clues as to what the O's are actually doing.

[weird-O]

I'll join the chorus of voices that aren't troubled by this story. Unless Elias has a lifetime contract, he'll just be replaced by a new exec that aligns with Ownership's vision for the team. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Bottom line:

 

Elias has had two trade deadlines and two off seasons since the O's returned to being competitive to make moves to step change improve the O's. He has made just one significant move to do much and that was Burnes. Unacceptable for me. Others may view it differently.

 

Clearly a ways to go this offseason so we'll see but pieces are falling off the table quicker than predicted and not going the O's way.

[Mackus]

Eflin was also significant. Other trades were not.

O'Neill counts as well. Don't think Kimbrel or the 1-year SP do.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Eflin was also significant. Other trades were not.

O'Neill counts as well. Don't think Kimbrel or the 1-year SP do.

O'Neill replaces a guy we lost who hit 44 homers last year. The deal he got is fairly standard these days, and definitely more on the mid-range given the money being handed out. AKA, that was a bare minimum signing for a team looking to compete.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Eflin was also significant. Other trades were not.

O'Neill counts as well. Don't think Kimbrel or the 1-year SP do.

Ok I will cede Eflin could be considered significant. I don't see that but ok.

 

No way I see O'Neill as significant. As Play stated he is replacing Santander. Any bets on who has the best WAR next season? I like O'Neill fine but he is not a step changing move.

[Mackus]

O'Neill replaces a guy we lost who hit 44 homers last year. The deal he got is fairly standard these days, and definitely more on the mid-range given the money being handed out. AKA, that was a bare minimum signing for a team looking to compete.

Still significant. Bear minimum meets the threshold, and I wouldn't agree it's bear minimum, there were other smaller moves that could've been made including just giving the job to Kjerstad and looking only for a backup.

Think the criticisms of Elias for not doing more are fair, but shouldn't take away the things he has done.

[Mackus]

Ok I will cede Eflin could be considered significant. I don't see that but ok.

 

No way I see O'Neill as significant. As Play stated he is replacing Santander. Any bets on who has the best WAR next season? I like O'Neill fine but he is not a step changing move.

 

Availability is the main reason to think Santander will out-produce O'Neill next year.  Tony put up 2.9 WAR in 665 PA.  O'Neill 2.6 in 473.  If O'Neill stays healthy, he's the better player.  That's a big if for him though and Tony has been very reliable.

 

O'Neill has the higher career WAR in over 1000 fewer PA.  Half of that is his money 2021, but it happened.  Tony has never had a season over 3 WAR.

 

I don't think O'Neill & Kjerstad is likely to be a step back from Santander.  I expect better production. 

[mdrunning]

I think with Elias the dollars aren't so much the issue, but the years. If Corbin Burnes, say, wanted to be the highest-paid pitcher in the game in terms of AAV, but over a shorter term, Elias would make him an offer in a nanosecond. He just doesn't want saddle himself with one of these huge, long-term contracts that will almost inevitably turn upsidedown and thus hinder his ability to put together a competitive roster down the road.

 

If Elias has proven anything during his time here, it's that he's very risk-averse, which shouldn't really surprise anyone. I doubt he would have landed the Oriole gig if he had gone on and on during the interview about how much money he intended to spend. If you want that guy, go hire Dave Dombrowski.

[Mackus]

O'Neill replaces a guy we lost who hit 44 homers last year. The deal he got is fairly standard these days, and definitely more on the mid-range given the money being handed out. AKA, that was a bare minimum signing for a team looking to compete.

 

O'Neill hit exactly as many homers per PA than Santander last year, he just missed some time so only totaled 31.  Park adjusted Tony's OPS+ was a little better (134 to 132).  Missing time is an issue, but we have very good replacement candidates, IMO, so not a huge red flag.  Also a question of consistency, as Tony's been solid and O'Neill has been up and down.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Availability is the main reason to think Santander will out-produce O'Neill next year.  Tony put up 2.9 WAR in 665 PA.  O'Neill 2.6 in 473.  If O'Neill stays healthy, he's the better player.  That's a big if for him though and Tony has been very reliable.

 

O'Neill has the higher career WAR in over 1000 fewer PA.  Half of that is his money 2021, but it happened.  Tony has never had a season over 3 WAR.

 

I don't think O'Neill & Kjerstad is likely to be a step back from Santander.  I expect better production. 

Fair points but its still replacing what we had. I am looking to improve the team over 2024 not keep it to the same expected level (or worse).

[You Play to Win the Game]

O'Neill hit exactly as many homers per PA than Santander last year, he just missed some time so only totaled 31. Park adjusted Tony's OPS+ was a little better (134 to 132). Missing time is an issue, but we have very good replacement candidates, IMO, so not a huge red flag. Also a question of consistency, as Tony's been solid and O'Neill has been up and down.

The bottom line for me is the team has not improved on paper. O’Neill replaced (hopefully) production that we lost. Sure, that’s better than not replacing that production, but it just doesn’t do anything for me given the hopes I had coming into the offseason.

[Mackus]

The bottom line for me is the team has not improved on paper. O’Neill replaced (hopefully) production that we lost. Sure, that’s better than not replacing that production, but it just doesn’t do anything for me given the hopes I had coming into the offseason.

 

Right they're worse without Burnes.  Think O'Neill replacing Santander is fine.  If they don't do anything to reoplace Burnes, that'll be a failure, as will if they do something really mundane to replace him.  Hell even if they'd done one move that I like - such as sign Eovaldi ro trade for Castillo - that won't fully replace Burnes so they'll still be a bit behind where I'd like them to be.  Plus they need to add a good RP, IMO.

 

But not having done so now is irrelevant until there aren't good options remaining.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I'll join the chorus of voices that aren't troubled by this story. Unless Elias has a lifetime contract, he'll just be replaced by a new exec that aligns with Ownership's vision for the team. 

This. If the story is true, one of two things will happen. Either Elias will meet lofty expectations, in which case no one will care that he’s cheap. Or he won’t and Rubenstein will replace him with a GM that will spend his money, while also inheriting a strong player development system, and we’ll all have reason for optimism going forward.

[Mackus]

For Ricker and Steve, you've both mentioned a bottom line, and I guess what I'm pushing back on is the existence or usefulness of having a bottom line right now.  Now isn't a deadline for anything, so I just don't see what the purpose of declaring something as not good enough yet serves.  They have work to do, I think everyone agrees.  

[Pedro Cerrano]

It’s a long offseason. But I’m on record as being OUT on Rubenstein if they penny pinch.

I’m still extremely bitter about them taking the beer discount away.

[BobPhelan]

I'll join the chorus of voices that aren't troubled by this story. Unless Elias has a lifetime contract, he'll just be replaced by a new exec that aligns with Ownership's vision for the team. 

 

"Coaches were fired to punish Hyde", wouldn't they just fire Hyde and hire another puppet? Also, Fuller wasn't fired he left on his own accord. And yeah I think Rubenstein would find someone else if he had an issue with what Elias was doing. 

 

Not saying there aren't any issues or that this source doesn't have good reasons for being disgruntled. But as a one source piece it feels like Ben was used in order for this person to vent publicly.