114 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

"Coaches were fired to punish Hyde", wouldn't they just fire Hyde and hire another puppet? Also, Fuller wasn't fired he left on his own accord. And yeah I think Rubenstein would find someone else if he had an issue with what Elias was doing.

Not saying there aren't any issues or that this source doesn't have good reasons for being disgruntled. But as a one source piece it feels like Ben was used in order for this person to vent publicly.

Which is on the writer to be more professional. Hes the one who looks bad writing that stuff. Someone said yesterday, whats the problem, look at it as an opinion piece. Whos name is on it. Its not the unnamed source whos spitting dude like grievances. Imagine if a real journalist wrote opinion pieces every time they talked to a disgruntled employee in this country

[BSLBenPalmer]

Which is on the writer to be more professional. Hes the one who looks bad writing that stuff. Someone said yesterday, whats the problem, look at it as an opinion piece. Whos name is on it. Its not the unnamed source whos spitting dude like grievances. Imagine if a real journalist wrote opinion pieces every time they talked to a disgruntled employee in this country

I mean, it’s definitely not an opinion piece of my own.

Here’s how I saw it: a source who is extremely well-connected in the Orioles front office came to Pitcher List and subsequently me with the information in the article. I felt it was my responsibility to convey this information to the public.

I know most don’t know this, but my day-to-day job is as a journalist (I write about healthcare). I take my job seriously, I take my ethics as a journalist seriously, regardless of whether in writing about sports or whatever. I would not have written and published this story if I didn’t feel the source was reliable.


I understand people may be skeptical of what the source says, that’s fine, I get it. But believe me when I say that if I wasn’t 100% certain that this person truly is as tuned into the warehouse as I know they are, I would not have written this and Pitcher List would not have run it.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Then IMO people who do write about the Os for a living should be investigating and writing their own article if there is smoke. This is a real story if its true. Some of the stuff written in that article is mind boggling. I feel its sensationalized but I welcome more info to come out and be proven wrong.

[BSLBenPalmer]

Then IMO people who do write about the Os for a living should be investigating and writing their own article if there is smoke. This is a real story if it’s true. Some of the stuff written in that article is mind boggling.

For whatever it’s worth, it’s my understanding that the Orioles front office is extremely insular, that everyone has NDAs out the wazoo, and that the Orioles are pretty quick to revoke press credentials, which I would venture has likely prevented the Orioles beat writers from investigating too deeply into the goings on of the front office. It’s also likely why the Orioles people I know who I reached out to about the story told me they didn’t wanna touch it one way or the other.

[makoman]

For whatever it’s worth, it’s my understanding that the Orioles front office is extremely insular, that everyone has NDAs out the wazoo, and that the Orioles are pretty quick to revoke press credentials, which I would venture has likely prevented the Orioles beat writers from investigating too deeply into the goings on of the front office. It’s also likely why the Orioles people I know who I reached out to about the story told me they didn’t wanna touch it one way or the other.

Yeah I don't feel like, say for example, John Calvin Meyer or Jon Meoli even has an opportunity to write this article. No one in the FO is talking at all about their processes publicly, and even if they do, you'll never get credentialed again if you talk about it in a negative way. If this is a story at all it's a story that the non-traditional media has to write. If a story like this is to come out you need it to be a random guy who isn't a normal beat writer type.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yeah I don't feel like, say for example, John Calvin Meyer or Jon Meoli even has an opportunity to write this article. No one in the FO is talking at all about their processes publicly, and even if they do, you'll never get credentialed again if you talk about it in a negative way. If this is a story at all it's a story that the non-traditional media has to write. If a story like this is to come out you need it to be a random guy who isn't a normal beat writer type.

I can understand the thought that a "non normal writer" needs to  break the story though Im not sure I agree. After its out there though its the duty to snoop around. Again, these are some really out there things being said. Something that if true is serious and  detrimental to the outlook of the org going forward. 

[BaltBird 24]

What's crazy about the article except the mention that it's a vanity project or that Elias is afraid to spend because then there will be more pressure for the team to perform? I don't think any of that stuff is TOO crazy or detrimental to the future.

It's crazy to think Elias would think it's less pressure to fail just because it's his homegrown team. If anything, you'd think there's more pressure because you passed on other opportunities to improve the team in favor of your guys.

[Mackus]

What's crazy about the article except the mention that it's a vanity project or that Elias is afraid to spend because then there will be more pressure for the team to perform? I don't think any of that stuff is TOO crazy or detrimental to the future.

It's crazy to think Elias would think it's less pressure to fail just because it's his homegrown team. If anything, you'd think there's more pressure because you passed on other opportunities to improve the team in favor of your guys.

The hyperbole is so extreme it makes me not believe anything the source said. Too much bias to glean any signal, it's all noise. The vanity project part and especially the wants to avoid accountability part. Just no way you can hear that and think "yeah, this sounds like a guy with a legit point".

I've got some big problems with how Elias has gone about augmenting the core of this team, but I don't think anything in here is worth considering given how obviously untrustworthy the source is based on the quotes.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

What's crazy about the article except the mention that it's a vanity project or that Elias is afraid to spend because then there will be more pressure for the team to perform? I don't think any of that stuff is TOO crazy or detrimental to the future.

It's crazy to think Elias would think it's less pressure to fail just because it's his homegrown team. If anything, you'd think there's more pressure because you passed on other opportunities to improve the team in favor of your guys.

It reads like an unhinged rant. Im surprised that someone gave him a real forum to express it. Yes, pitcherlist is a real forum despite it not being a major outlet or anything. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The hyperbole is so extreme it makes me not believe anything the source said. Too much bias to glean any signal, it's all noise. The vanity project part and especially the wants to avoid accountability part. Just no way you can hear that and think "yeah, this sounds like a guy with a legit point".

I've got some big problems with how Elias has gone about augmenting the core of this team, but I don't think anything in here is worth considering given how obviously untrustworthy the source is based on the quotes.

Exactly. FOr example if it was something like, "Elias has a philosophy where he doesnt want to spend big money in FA despite the owner allowing him to spend more". Yeah, I can see that.  Do I think Elias has an ego. Yeah, sure.  I think there could be more legitmacy shown to it if the author showed more editorial control instead of being used to rant publically.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

To Ben, 

 

I may have went too hard in the paint. I appreciate that you came in here and posted.  I have issues with the article but I respect that you stand by your source and your article.

[BSLBenPalmer]

To Ben,

I may have went too hard in the paint. I appreciate that you came in here and posted. I have issues with the article but I respect that you stand by your source and your article.

No worries man, I get it, it’s all good.

It’s funny, I’ve seen a lot of responses to the article saying things like “I can’t believe some source would come to Pitcher List or Ben Palmer of all places instead of some bigger site,” and my response has been, yeah, I agree. I am also surprised. I was not expecting this to happen at all, it’s never been something I’ve done in my sports reporting life. But it’s what happened, and I’ve tried to use the best judgment I can in my ~10ish years of journalism experience.

And also let it be known that I would love nothing more as a lifelong Orioles fan for this article to be completely proven wrong and the O’s to re-sign Burnes and go wild. I will *gladly* take all the internet hate in the world for that to happen because the Orioles doing well means so much more to me than anything else.

[dude]

No worries man, I get it, it’s all good.

 

Ben, the angst of Wile E isn't about you.  I've shared perception/perspective (not sourced, just plenty of indicators) about Elias/etc and it gets mocked and disparaged by several, led by one or two.  Your sourced article lines up shockingly close to my perspective (to the point Wile E is accusing it of being something I wrote or I'd write) so they either have to admit they were wrong and I was right or fight the article. 

Guess which one they chose. 

 

If your article had lined up with other perspectives (theirs, not mine, whatever), then you'd be a bold writer that is providing important context to Elias and the Orioles and thank you.  It's like Wile E is setting out to demonstrate intellectual dishonesty.

[weird-O]

For whatever it’s worth, it’s my understanding that the Orioles front office is extremely insular, that everyone has NDAs out the wazoo, and that the Orioles are pretty quick to revoke press credentials, which I would venture has likely prevented the Orioles beat writers from investigating too deeply into the goings on of the front office. It’s also likely why the Orioles people I know who I reached out to about the story told me they didn’t wanna touch it one way or the other.

It's a bummer to hear that the Peter G. Angelos press credential revocation policy didn't get buried with him. If this story has legs, someone at the national level (cough cough...Rosenthal) will surely dig into it. 

[dude]

Anyway, there are a lot of damning things in this article if true. It's like the worst case nightmare scenario that I feel like dude could have written.

 

I don't feel like there's anything "damning" in there unless you have a distorted view of who Elias is or maybe more accurately, who you want him to be.  Does anyone think all GMs (whatever title) are the same in their execution?  Seems like a whole lot of people wanted to trust certain things in the absence of any evidence that's who Elias was or what he was doing.

 

Personally, I'm not even judging it.  I've used the word "introvert" (as described, for example, in Myers-Briggs) but some people want to make it a criticism or slam.  It's not, it's a statement of personality.  We see it in almost all of his actions and you see it in this article.  There's degrees to everything and because you're an I doesn't mean you can do, or even be good at, E things....but it's certainly where your comfort level is and if you don't fight and grow to be the things you are less comfortable with, then you fall back into your comfort zones.

 

One way you grow in the job is the mentors you have or had.  Who is Mike Elias' mentor(s)? He was a scout in STL with Luhnow and followed him to Houston.  The Astros in those days had a (described as) arrogant approach to other teams, very internally, model based and they knew they value, what they wanted, etc.  That group DIDN'T have relationships in the game and when they got filleted by the cheating scandal, where are those top FO guys now?  Elias got out before the scandal, one of his cohorts is writing for Fangraphs.  Really his only mentor, Jeff Luhnow, is out of MLB. 

 

I think some of the language you see in the article is just frustration.  When you are of a different personality and you want to see a different approach, your labels are going to lean in one direction.  Hardly new for anything.  I can go through each one of them, but I think the overarching theme is that Elias is comfortable with his internal processes and he doesn't really know how to shake himself out of it.

 

Firemen and Accountants have different personalities that will typically direct and lean into their career choices.  Elias' approach isn't some grand exercise (vanity project) on his part, he's pursuing a view of success through his comfort zone.

[dude]

The source added that the Orioles’ new ownership group is “naïve” and has no idea what they bought last year, and Rubenstein himself will often defer to Elias rather than force Elias’s hand.

 

I doubt they (the Rubenstein Group) are naïve.  They are taking over for one of the worst ownership groups in modern professional sports (not just Baseball) history.  You see David Rubenstein doing and saying (imo) the right things. Working to portray the new ownership group in a more connected, engaged way (to the fanbase).

 

The challenge they have is being overly sensitive to the perception of meddling.  PGA closed off his Baseball people because he believed he could do a better job and it's led to decades of frustration and issues where the fanbase actually becomes the enemy because they lack appreciation for the self-perceived awesome ownership....like the King who declares the beatings will continue until moral improves.  JA enabled Elias in 2019-2021 because it served other purposes, but you see John taking over again in 2022 and 2023.

 

My encouragement would be, if billionaires have any desire to take advice from random non-billionaire people on the internet, that you still treat it as the work you do in a successful capital investment firm.  When you have a newer portfolio manager, who doesn't have a track record you can instinctively trust yet, you don't just ask them how they are going to manage their portfolio to make money.  The analytics, the development of products, all of that stuff is great...now you've been here for a minute now get out of process and lets get to application. Tell me who we're acquiring and why, the risks, how much money we're making (ROI) and what you need from the Firm to make this happen and what time your plane leaves.

 

The Carlyle Group sets the Vision for how they execute. Top leadership doesn't have to know everything about the acquisitions to execute, you do need people that understand the acquisitions and can sell you on the opportunity. 

You don't have to be a doctor to run the Hospital. You do have to be a doctor to do the surgery. 

You build trust and more autonomy with success over time.  We'll see.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Maybe coincidental timing, though I suspect not. From Roch's Mailbag:

 

 

What is the minimum number of sources - anonymous or otherwise - you require before you're comfortable publishing an article?

It depends on the subject. If it’s someone close to the situation with direct knowledge who’s passing along information, like a signing or hiring for instance, that’s fine. I only needed one person to share information on coaching hires. Otherwise, it’s recommended that you get multiple trusted sources for a bigger story. I learned that the hard way earlier in my career. Why do you ask?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Lol that’s hilarious coming from Roch. The correct answer for him is: “I just write whatever Elias or Rubenstein asks me to write. To get a correct answer on this question, you’d have to ask a real journalist.”

No shade towards Roch, it is what it is, but who in their right mind would ask him of all people a question like this given his employer?

[BaltBird 24]

Roch is just a MASN shill. He's not even a real journalist anymore. Sad part for Roch is, he's literally the Orioles official beat writer yet they never even feed him a breaking story every now and then.

[Ravens2006]

Anything Elias ever said about John Angelos being willing to spend money on major league talent was total, pure, utter bullchit. It was a nonstop salary and expense cutting effort to pocket more profits and clean the slate for the next owner. Major league won loss record never ever mattered one iota to John Angelos. Zero.

Elias' background, and ability to work in and still have success in that environment was a perfect and all-luck match. But John never EVER wanted to spend more in an effort to win more. Once dad (or power of attorney) relinquished the reigns to John, it was full speed ahead on profit maximization.