109 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Misread your question. Thought you meant would I rerun last season with that WR room. My apologies.

Next season, of course I'm looking to improve that room. I KNOW Wallace and Proche have nothing to offer now. I KNOW Bateman is potentially injury prone.

Also depends on the options available, and who our OC happens to be, after we hopefully part ways with Roman.

But last year we suspected all those things. Bateman had gotten hurt before. Proche had never been good and was a late round pick. Duvernay had never done much.

Those suspicions is why it was a very questionable choice to go into the season with two unproven guys at the top of the room and nothing but filler backing them up. Of course improving on that would've cost something, so gotta weigh that, but it remains a major risk that DeCosta accepted to go into the year with these guys. So that result is on him, if you take on risk, sometimes you get bit.

[makoman]

But last year we suspected all those things. Bateman had gotten hurt before. Proche had never been good and was a late round pick. Duvernay had never done much.

Those suspicions is why it was a very questionable choice to go into the season with two unproven guys at the top of the room and nothing but filler backing them up. Of course improving on that would've cost something, so gotta weigh that, but it remains a major risk that DeCosta accepted to go into the year with these guys. So that result is on him, if you take on risk, sometimes you get bit.

I think Biggsy's point is that all rosters in a capped world have risk somewhere, you can't have strength or even average everywhere, there will be weaknesses. So you can't really complain that the GM allowed a roster to have a weakness. We chose to take that risk at arguably the least important position on this team, but unfortunately just about everything went wrong. And that includes the injury to Andrews, that's an underrated part of this. He was clearly less effective and could have taken a lot of the pressure off the WR room with a year closer to 2021.

[Mackus]

I think Biggsy's point is that all rosters in a capped world have risk somewhere, you can't have strength or even average everywhere, there will be weaknesses. So you can't really complain that the GM allowed a roster to have a weakness. We chose to take that risk at arguably the least important position on this team, but unfortunately just about everything went wrong. And that includes the injury to Andrews, that's an underrated part of this. He was clearly less effective and could have taken a lot of the pressure off the WR room with a year closer to 2021.

I agree that you've gotta take risk somewhere.

I don't agree with the idea that you absolve the decision-maker of blame if the risk you accept ends up hurting you. It's ultimately on him and a fair point for criticism. Just like the O-Line was in 2021 or like the pass rush was this year (that one worked out, to his credit).

[Bmore Irish]

Who was available that the Ravens could afford, that would have made it better?

Do we all of a sudden have unlimited cap space?

Of course it was a risk. But if you have Roman as your OC, what position on offense do you feel you can sacrifice and take a risk on ? Hint, it's not anywhere on defense, RB, TE or offensive line.

This is tangential to the current discussion, but they made some moves that worked out and were even necessary, that may soon need to be viewed as luxuries they can't afford to prioritize.

 

Patrick Mekari is paid as much or more than plenty starting linemen in the league. Of Ravens currently under contract for 2023, he's in the top 10 of salaries. We've seen him play enough, and I think he's very capable. Yet he's a 6th lineman on this team. EDC solved the offensive line in a big way this season, and that was critical, but look at all the resources they had to pour into it to accomplish that. It paid off, especially with the Ja'Wuan James injury and Stanley needing more time getting back into the lineup, but all of the draft picks and FA signings have eaten up resources from being spent elsewhere. There have been quite a few 3rd and 4th round picks spent over the past several years that are either no longer on the team, or never see the field. What's Faalele going to be?

 

Anybody else completely forget that Michael Pierce was signed to the team? You can't predict injuries, it is what it is. But let's just say Calais Campbell retires this off-season, and they keep Pierce's contract on the books; I don't want to see resources being spent on more run-stopping IDL who may or may not provide a pass rush. Time to roll with who you've got. Pierce and the young guys need to step up.

 

It's the same thing with the edge rushers. When you've paid a guy like Bowser, albeit not top of the market money, and spent prime draft picks on Oweh and Ojabo, it's now time to develop them and turn them loose on the opposing offense. They needed to bring in vets like Houston and JPP to get through injuries early on, and I think that was necessary and smart, but it's not sustainable moving forward.

 

The Ravens are going to have to get over their fear of allowing rookies to play important roles on this team. We do this as fans every offseason, talking about how IF this second year player or rookie breaks out or takes the next step, the team will be in great shape. It often doesn't work out that way, but teams all over the league are relying on mid-round rookies and getting the most out of them.

 

What was up with the whole Nick Boyle situation, especially when you're going to pay Ricard? Ricard, who I love by the way and played an important role in Roman's offense, may be someone who's viewed as a luxury in the not too distant future. Kyle Fuller unfortunately gets hurt in the first game, and then the two rookie CBs you drafted never see the field after some early growing pains.

 

They may soon need to reevaluate how they handle some of these position groups and which ones they prioritize. Again, I think the moves EDC made prior to this season were pretty much necessary, and it's not all on him anyway, coaches need to coach too. But the time is coming when they'll need to adjust some philosophies.

 

Somewhat related, I saw on twitter that Roman's contract allegedly expires after this season anyway? I don't where that can be verified, but that would make the OC decision pretty easy.

[Bmore Irish]

Also, I can't wait to see how Kyle Hamilton continues to develop, and how they use him moving forward, particularly when they're not forced to have him playing 100% of his snaps as the nickel defender. He's got the talent, skillset, and football IQ to be the Ravens 6'4" freak version of Tyrann Mathieu. He's so great playing top down to the ball.

 

Plenty of snaps as nickel, covering and blitzing; show two high looks where Hamilton rotates down late as the robber to take away crossers and other in-breaking routes in the middle of the field while Williams plays centerfield; playing in the box and erasing tight ends; playing deep half to allow guys like Humphrey and the outside corners to comfortably play more aggressive.

 

I have to wonder whether Chuck Clark will be back next year. The defense would be a lot more flexible with the appropriate depth at corner, both outside and nickel, freeing up Hamilton to be the chess piece he's capable of being. He's in that "positionless" mold that they loved to talk about while Wink was DC.

[Biggsy]

I agree that you've gotta take risk somewhere.

I don't agree with the idea that you absolve the decision-maker of blame if the risk you accept ends up hurting you. It's ultimately on him and a fair point for criticism. Just like the O-Line was in 2021 or like the pass rush was this year (that one worked out, to his credit).

Criticizing a person for doing the right thing seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to do. We both agree he has to take risks with a hard cap in place. I think we both agree he made the most logical move, taking that risk with the WR's, over the offensive line or secondary.

So, he did all the right things. He made all the right moves, that he could make. He took the chance on a position that most of us agree, is the least important position in a Roman led offense. And yet, we criticize him for doing what we all would have done in his spot.

[Biggsy]

Also, I can't wait to see how Kyle Hamilton continues to develop, and how they use him moving forward, particularly when they're not forced to have him playing 100% of his snaps as the nickel defender. He's got the talent, skillset, and football IQ to be the Ravens 6'4" freak version of Tyrann Mathieu. He's so great playing top down to the ball.

Plenty of snaps as nickel, covering and blitzing; show two high looks where Hamilton rotates down late as the robber to take away crossers and other in-breaking routes in the middle of the field while Williams plays centerfield; playing in the box and erasing tight ends; playing deep half to allow guys like Humphrey and the outside corners to comfortably play more aggressive.

I have to wonder whether Chuck Clark will be back next year. The defense would be a lot more flexible with the appropriate depth at corner, both outside and nickel, freeing up Hamilton to be the chess piece he's capable of being. He's in that "positionless" mold that they loved to talk about while Wink was DC.

Clark seems like a logical candidate to be traded or cut for cap space.

[Mike in STL]

The mistake was to not replace Brown.  Bateman as a #1 was questionable and Duvernay as a #2 was questionable.  Proche or Wallace or any camp FA (Robinson) as #3 was questionable.  If those guys are all a slot down, or at least one of them, things look a lot better and a lot more secure.

 

If you don't blame DeCosta for that room, who do you blame?  Its not like anyone else is in charge.  Its not like it was only injuries that led to the issues.  It was a giant gamble and that is without any sort of hindsight, people were calling it a mistake in the offseason.  It was an error and it hurt.  That doesn't make DeCosta a moron or a bad GM or put him on the hot seat, but it was a problem that he should've found a way to address before it became one.

Bateman as a #1 was not questionable, IMO. He has all the traits of the X receiver. Ability to win one-on-one, gain separation in phone booth, beat you over the top. If you consider Andrews to be run out of the slot more and be 1st or 2nd in target share with Bateman, than Duvernay as a #3 isn't questionable. 

 

After that, does it matter with our genius OC? In 2021, in very limited snaps thanks to our scheme, Proche and Wallace showed great hands which is all I ask of the guys that far down the chart. They earned a chance to move up the chart with the spot vacated by Brown, IMO. But in 2022 Proche's hands turned into frying pans and Wallace couldn't force his way into more action, and was on IR for a period too. 

 

Who are you signing anyway? Giving up the picks, and giving a mega deal to Davante Adams? Allen Robinson was a non-factor for the Rams even with Stafford. Christian Kirk had a nice year but wasn't all that great in AZ. JAX overpaid I think for what Kirk had done to that point in his career, and I would have been mad if the Ravens shelled out that money for him. Ju-Ju is under 1,000 yards in maybe the most prolific passing offense in the game. What would he do here with Roman? More tik-toks than yards probably. Chark missed significant time with the Lions this year. 

After that, Will Fuller, Russell Gage, Valdez-Scantling...no thanks. 

 

Drafting someone available instead of Ojabo. Skyy Moore's name came up. 22 catches for 250 yards. The Chiefs traded for Kadairus Toney. That's what they think of Skyy Moore right now. Moore doesn't get on the field for Harbs until Bateman goes down, then is he any better Robinson? George Pickens, decent year for a rookie. Alec Pierce, meh. Easy to say in hindsight to pick Pickens maybe. Don't remember anyone begging for him on draft day.

 

If Bateman and Duvernay remained healthy this isn't even a conversation right now. Other than, why is our dumbass OC not involving Bateman and Duvernay more? 

[Biggsy]

Bateman as a #1 was not questionable, IMO. He has all the traits of the X receiver. Ability to win one-on-one, gain separation in phone booth, beat you over the top. If you consider Andrews to be run out of the slot more and be 1st or 2nd in target share with Bateman, than Duvernay as a #3 isn't questionable.

After that, does it matter with our genius OC? In 2021, in very limited snaps thanks to our scheme, Proche and Wallace showed great hands which is all I ask of the guys that far down the chart. They earned a chance to move up the chart with the spot vacated by Brown, IMO. But in 2022 Proche's hands turned into frying pans and Wallace couldn't force his way into more action, and was on IR for a period too.

Who are you signing anyway? Giving up the picks, and giving a mega deal to Davante Adams? Allen Robinson was a non-factor for the Rams even with Stafford. Christian Kirk had a nice year but wasn't all that great in AZ. JAX overpaid I think for what Kirk had done to that point in his career, and I would have been mad if the Ravens shelled out that money for him. Ju-Ju is under 1,000 yards in maybe the most prolific passing offense in the game. What would he do here with Roman? More tik-toks than yards probably. Chark missed significant time with the Lions this year.
After that, Will Fuller, Russell Gage, Valdez-Scantling...no thanks.

Drafting someone available instead of Ojabo. Skyy Moore's name came up. 22 catches for 250 yards. The Chiefs traded for Kadairus Toney. That's what they think of Skyy Moore right now. Moore doesn't get on the field for Harbs until Bateman goes down, then is he any better Robinson? George Pickens, decent year for a rookie. Alec Pierce, meh. Easy to say in hindsight to pick Pickens maybe. Don't remember anyone begging for him on draft day.

If Bateman and Duvernay remained healthy this isn't even a conversation right now. Other than, why is our dumbass OC not involving Bateman and Duvernay more?

100% agree.

[makoman]

If Bateman and Duvernay remained healthy this isn't even a conversation right now. Other than, why is our dumbass OC not involving Bateman and Duvernay more? 

Seems like every other week the media had to remind Roman that Duvernay was on the team and he'd be like "Oh yeah, I'll have to use him more." He's too busy dreaming up TE runs and passes to a former DL.

[Slidemaster]

Y'all.

Wide receivers are reflections of their QB, not the other way around.

It would be one thing if these guys had no pedigree, but they did. One WR with a 1st round draft pedigree asked out of the offense because he wasn't able to produce how he wanted. The other got injured, but it wasn't like he was lighting the world on fire.

Why is Zay Jones suddenly a force in Jacksonville? Lawrence. Why is the KC passing game still elite? Mahomes. There is some degree of shared responsibility here, but ultimately, receivers are a reflection of the QB throwing them the ball. I'm not going to sit here and say that they are interchangeable, but even WRs with mountains of talent can't produce with a QB who can't, or won't consistently get them the ball.

That just isn't Lamar's strength. It's also not Roman's. Match made in hell.

[Mackus]

A late 1st round pick with a decent but nothing special rookie year as your #1 receiver with nobody remotely proven behind him is absolutely questionable.  Lots of people questioned it before hand.  

 

There was potential with Bateman, but it was certainly a risk to lock him in as the top guy without anything close to a backup plan.  Not destined to fail, not an indefensible choice, but a choice where a very clear risk is being taken.  When that risk then bites you, its not something you just ignore as cost of doing business.  It was a gamble and it hurt and is fair grounds for criticism, both the process and the result.

[Mike in STL]

Hah, ok. Guess the WR wasn't a problem then. You running the same crew back next year?

No. Because it looks different than it did a year ago. IMO Proche has lost his job and Wallace, depends on if Harbs is here and how much  he values is ST contribution. Both of those guys I thought in the little time they play in this scheme earned more PT in 2022. Not going into 2023. 

 

But this FA class looks really weak. 

 

If Roman is here, Bateman, Andrews, Duvernay are back. Does Likely shed a few pounds and play more WR? They run enough two TE sets anyway. If you are drafting a guy they are going to start at least 5th on the pecking order. Which means not going to play much. 

 

If Roman is gone, depends on who comes in, depends on who the QB is, those things depend on who to add to the WR room. Maybe Bateman and Duvernay see their PT shoot up under a new OC. Maybe Andrews is more an end of the line TE, and Likely might be tweener in the new OCs eyes. If the new OC wants to run a lot of 11 personnel, then all of sudden yeah, WR is a priority. If Roman sticks around, is it really? Ricard will see the field more than whoever they bring in.

 

It's pretty important the Ravens don't dick around, and get to work on 2023 like, now. Coaching decisions should have already been made with the caveat that opinions could be changed in the playoffs. Nothing in one playoff loss should have changed any of the brasses minds about the coaching staff. If they wait a week to move on from Roman, that's a week too long. They can't tag Lamar until late February. But they should already have a contract offer on the table if they want to extend him. Nothing has changed in six weeks. Season is over so Lamar's no contract talk in season clause in up, right? They should already know what they are going to do.

[Mike in STL]

A late 1st round pick with a decent but nothing special rookie year as your #1 receiver with nobody remotely proven behind him is absolutely questionable.  Lots of people questioned it before hand.  

 

There was potential with Bateman, but it was certainly a risk to lock him in as the top guy without anything close to a backup plan.  Not destined to fail, not an indefensible choice, but a choice where a very clear risk is being taken.  When that risk then bites you, its not something you just ignore as cost of doing business.  It was a gamble and it hurt and is fair grounds for criticism, both the process and the result.

He's in the Roman offense. He missed games in his rookie year. If you look at his film from college, if you look at some of the plays in made as a rookie, it wasn't questionable that he could be special. He was balling out (as much as a WR can in the Roman offense) for a few games. Tried to play though a foot injury that ended up ending his season. 

 

Also, don't look at it as #1 receiver. X receivers and Z receivers have different skill sets. Bateman is an X. When he goes down, Duvernay doesn't become the X, cause he doesn't have that skill set. It doesn't work that way. 

[makoman]

Y'all.

Wide receivers are reflections of their QB, not the other way around.

It would be one thing if these guys had no pedigree, but they did. One WR with a 1st round draft pedigree asked out of the offense because he wasn't able to produce how he wanted. The other got injured, but it wasn't like he was lighting the world on fire.

Why is Zay Jones suddenly a force in Jacksonville? Lawrence. Why is the KC passing game still elite? Mahomes. There is some degree of shared responsibility here, but ultimately, receivers are a reflection of the QB throwing them the ball. I'm not going to sit here and say that they are interchangeable, but even WRs with mountains of talent can't produce with a QB who can't, or won't consistently get them the ball.

That just isn't Lamar's strength. It's also not Roman's. Match made in hell.

Burrow was alright. Took a big step with Chase.

Allen was alright. Took a big step with Diggs.

Kyler was alright. Took a big step with Hopkins.

WRs certainly help QBs.

[Bmore Irish]

Y'all.

Wide receivers are reflections of their QB, not the other way around.

It would be one thing if these guys had no pedigree, but they did. One WR with a 1st round draft pedigree asked out of the offense because he wasn't able to produce how he wanted. The other got injured, but it wasn't like he was lighting the world on fire.

Why is Zay Jones suddenly a force in Jacksonville? Lawrence. Why is the KC passing game still elite? Mahomes. There is some degree of shared responsibility here, but ultimately, receivers are a reflection of the QB throwing them the ball. I'm not going to sit here and say that they are interchangeable, but even WRs with mountains of talent can't produce with a QB who can't, or won't consistently get them the ball.

That just isn't Lamar's strength. It's also not Roman's. Match made in hell.

So you think Roman's part of the problem here, but other successful QBs in the league aren't impacted by coaching and offensive playcalling?

 

Andy Reid was considered one of the best offensive minds in the league before Mahomes was ever drafted, particularly for his passing offense. I'm sure that has nothing to do with how Mahomes career started, or the production he's getting out of a crew that includes the best TE in the league and a worse collection of WR talent that's somehow still better than the Ravens.

 

Doug Pederson won a Super Bowl with Carson Wentz and Nick Foles at QB, how have those guys been fairing in the league since then? It was a much discussed story that when Wentz went down, Pederson installed more RPO plays in the offense because Foles was comfortable with it, and helped make their offense go in Wentz's absence. But I'm sure Lawrence's development has nothing to do with coaching in his second year. Ironic since i believe you posted in the beginning of the season about how he was not a franchise QB.

 

There's so many examples around the league of what a difference coaching makes. And the difference talent at the skill position makes.

 

What a horrible take, especially when Lamar absolutely has elevated the players around him in spite of the playcalling in the past.

[Hooded Viper]

So Zay Jones couldn’t play with Josh Allen but can with Lawrence? Wide Receiver is a tough position to play, especially when the drafted receiver was never asked to run multiple route trees or read a defense and sit down in an open area within that route. Again, I 100% believe EDC would admit it was a huge risk to go into the season with the talent they had but hoped they could get away with it based upon the crap scheme they utilized combined with the TE and RB groups. Btw, the Ravens were planning on drafting George Pickens until the Steelers moved up and got him, by which they then took Likely.

[Ravens2006]

I always believed that had the Owens deal gone through as intended, Boller would have had a longer / better career here. Himself. Now stop laughing, I'm not saying long and great career, just notably better than the mostly massive bust label than he retired with. Why? Because Owens would have turned more than a few of his inaccurate deep balls that would fall incomplete or intercepted, in to highlight reel grabs / TDs in traffic. Would have probably opened up more room occasionally for the Heap or checkdown stuff to gain additional yards too. But I don't know that it would have turned the team as a whole in to a much more successful product. A few more quick strike long TDs could have been counterbalanced by a few more sack / fumbles, or fewer ground based clock eating drives that wear a defense down... and in turn put the Ravens defense on the field more. But... the perception of Boller the QB is probably (relatively) better if T.O. plays 2 or 3 years here.

On the flip side, I think a TRULY elite top tier QB can make a whole offense look better and make a bigger difference in team fortunes.

Please don't take any of the above to suggest Boller would have been a stud with Owen's. It's relative success I'm talking here...

[Mackus]

Criticizing a person for doing the right thing seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to do. We both agree he has to take risks with a hard cap in place. I think we both agree he made the most logical move, taking that risk with the WR's, over the offensive line or secondary.

 

Don't agree that it was the most logical move.  It was a logical move, but not the most or my preferred.  I think more cap should've been allocated to WR in place of some other places it went.  One vet WR to help the depth of the room would've made things a lot more palatable up front.  I don't know exactly who I think the best option out there would've been, if I picked one out now I'd surely point to one of the cheaper guys who worked out, though of course not all of them do (Watkins in '21 an example of not working, though them bringing him in when they still had Brown does illustrate the need).

 

DeCosta chose this risk as one of the ones he was most comfortable with, and it ended up really hurting.  That's more than fair to criticize.

[hallas]

You caught flak because you were bashing Bateman and Duvernay. Both showed pretty good on their limited opportunities.

And Bateman more than showed he could take Browns place. His two long TD's the first two weeks should shut anyone up that wants to claim he doesn't have gamebreaking speed. He got injured. Duvernay got injured. And Roman has a terrible passing scheme.

On top of that, EDC did NOT make some random decision to trade Brown. Brown wanted out. The fact it keeps getting stated that EDC is somehow at fault for trading a guy who asked to be traded is starting to get annoying. It's a pretty simple concept to understand.

Also, we were hard against the cap, and we had limited resources available to fill holes in the WR room, the offensive line, the defensive line, and the secondary. He fixed all but one of those with very limited cap space. We have a GM that has fielded a playoff caliber, superbowl contending roster to start the season, for about 5 years straight now. But yeah, let's blame that guy. You'd think Orioles fans would be a little more appreciative of a competent front office and GM that consistently puts out a winning product, and has a roster capable of winning a Superbowl to start the season.

 

For the record, I didn't once bash Bateman.  I believed in his development.  I thought that behind Bateman we had no depth.  Duvernay did break out; I think I called one of the worst WRs in the league last year, so I was wrong with him. But even then, he wasn't a serious threat once he had to deal with more dificult cornerback matchups after the Bateman injury.  He "broke out" to the level of Demarcus Robinson, who isn't much more than a WR4 on a good team.

 

I also don't blame EDC for trading Hollywood; he got a good return for him and Hollywood asked out.  I blame EDC for not addressing the position elsewhere.   We drafted 2 TEs in round 4, despite having an all-pro TE, and passed on viable WR picks in round 2 in favor of a player that ended up sitting out for the first 16 weeks.

 

Also, when signing contracts in the offseason you can really work the cap favorably so the first year hit is negligible.  We could have made a FA or trade WR work.