347 replies to this topic

[ivanbalt]

At this point, there's no way the Ravens can pay Lamar what he wants.

[bmore_ken]

A couple of thoughts, not all that will be agreeable.

 

- I'm not shocked that the Ravens lost this game.  Despite people trying to paint Jacksonville as a bottom feeder, they are not that bad talent wise.  They are young, and they have had to overcome last year from the worst coach in football.  Urban Meyer is a POS, both in college and the NFL.  He won in college only because of the name and money the colleges he coached had.  In the NFL, he showed his true colors.  This season, Doug Peterson is repairing damage.  And he is trying to save their franchise QB from being destroyed.  The process is not easy.  But every loss except for KC this year has been by one score.  They are still learning how to win.  If their FO stays with Pederson and the program I would not be surprised to see them win their division next year. 

 

- Defense.  Ugh.  Roquan Smith obviously makes this defense better, but I still think the secondary is very suspect.  Trevor Lawrence might turn out to be a great QB, but right now he is average at best and a disappointment when compared to other first round QB picks.  But he torched the Raven's secondary when it counted.  I can only imagine what Mahomes will do if the Ravens end up playing KC in the playoffs.  

 

- Lamar Jackson.  He continues to be a very dynamic athletic talent, but his passing is very average, imo.  His accuracy is just not that good.  He consistently overthrows deep balls, and even in some medium range passes he is off target.  He makes up for that running the ball, but good defenses are going to contain that.  To be successful in this league, you need to at least be good making the medium 20+ yard throws downfield.  I haven't seen that.  Consistency is the biggest problem with his passing game.  Not sure I would pay him at this point.  Really got to think about that.  

 

- Marcus Peters.  He looks done.  Maybe it's just a one year thing, but he gets burned every week.  Sometimes he's just standing around doing nothing.  I don't know, but if I'm an opposing DC, I'm game planning my pass offense to his side.  

 

- Oweh.  Is this guy still on the team?  Not sure I have seen him do anything positive this whole season.

 

- Trevor Lawrence.  He had some moments today, but still think he is only average.  But the throw he made on the two point conversion was a laser.  That's the only way that pass is completed.  And a kudo to the receiver, that pass was drilled and was not that easy to catch.  

 

- Bottom line, the Ravens better hope CIncinnati looses down the road.  Their divisional record is worse than the Ravens and a tie will likely go in the Raven's favor.  If the two teams are tied and playing in Cincy at the end of the year, I'm not sure the Ravens have the team to beat them.  And if they are a WC team, they probably go one and out.  

So my responses to that. 

 

-Any team looks better when you don't score TDs in the Red zone. The Jags aren't a horrible team, but it's a different game if two of those FGs are TDs. You gotta punch it in. 

 

-The secondary was horrible. No argument there

 

-Lamar has his problems, but he mostly got it together in the second half and I counted four drops by receivers in the game. That being said I wouldn't be paying him $50M per with what he's done so far this year. 

 

-Not sure what's going on with Peters, but may be time to move on after this season.

 

-Oweh???????

 

-Lawrence was helped by our defense playing bad. I think he's a decent qb, but we made him look like Dan Marino

 

-We've already beat Cincy. I'm not concerned about us doing it again. Them losing before then would be nice though. 

[bmore_ken]

At this point, there's no way the Ravens can pay Lamar what he wants.

I have to agree.

[Mackus]

Especially the 4th and 5 play, where two receivers are completely unmarked and a 3rd is looking at a 7-8 yard cushion. On 4th and FIVE.

I'm not a guy who really knows scheme and watching tape, but is there really a difference between a 7-yard cushion and a 5-yard cushion in that scenario?  Would you prefer them in press?  The DB can move forward after the snap once he sees the beginning of the receivers route.  

[bmore_ken]

Hamilton was out and having to play Brandon Stephens and Pepe Williams against actual NFL receivers when Humphrey went out as well was more than a little problematic.

If Hamilton was healthy no shot we lose this.

If you turn one FG into a TD , we don't lose. The defense had it's issues no doubt, but you don't win constantly kicking FGs in the red zone. 

[Slidemaster]

I'm not sure why it's not allowed to acknowledge that Lamar is a good quarterback, while also acknowledging that he hasn't earned himself the largest fully guaranteed deal in NFL history.

At this point, I think it would take a SB victory to earn him that.

[Slidemaster]

For context, Lamar is 10th in total QBR in 2022.

That is lower than Derek Carr (9th), Jacoby Brissett (7th), and Geno Smith (5th).

He was 7th in 2020.

[Old Man]

So if his play isnt at the top of the QB ranks, how do you justify the top salary demands?

[You Play to Win the Game]

So if his play isnt at the top of the QB ranks, how do you justify the top salary demands?

Mackus has time and again later out very cleanly the risks and rewards of extending him. I personally disagree with the conclusions he makes and think we’ll be doomed to mediocrity, but I see his case. Especially with the inflated QB market in general. With so many teams overpaying for QB’s, more teams will win with depleted rosters. So it’s kind of the new normal. I think they’ll extend him ultimately.

[Mackus]

So if his play isnt at the top of the QB ranks, how do you justify the top salary demands?

 

A couple things...

 

First, it doesn't matter that he's the top paid guy at the time he signs.  That's temporary.  His overall contract is important, because it influences what the rest of the team can do, but his ranking among QBs is irrelevant.  And if you think it does, then a year after he signs his deal he'll be like the 6th or 7th highest paid guy as the leapfrog game continues. I also am not convinced he'll be the top paid guy in AAV even at signing, though I do think he'll get the most guaranteed money.

 

Second, you don't sign him if you think what he's done this season and the tail end of 2021 is what he'll do moving forward.

 

Third, I think its a bad assessment if you think that what he's done this year is what he will do moving forward.  We've seen him play at a very high level in the past and for significant stretches.  Right now he's at the back end of the top third or so in the league, I'd say.  And this year has been a bit of a struggle year for him relative to expectations and past performance.  If he gets the groove back then I think he's right back to top few guys in the league.  He's consistently been in the top third of the league, often much higher near the top few guys if not #1.  So if he's 10th best or whatever this year, how many of the guys ahead of him would you expect to repeat their seasons?  Improve?   I think the less-than-stellar  (but still top 10-12) play we've seen from Lamar this year is a low point, and I fully expect more like top-3 or 5 or whatever performance from him moving forward.

 

You sign him if you think he'll be worht the money moving forward and if that's a viable path to your goals.  This isn't a gun-to-head situation.  Its a willing commitment.  I still think Lamar is a far better bet for the organization than is a bunch of draft picks and cap space and needing to find the next QB.  Maybe that assessment will change over the final 6 games.  If we don't see any strong games from him, that'd be quite concerning.

[hallas]

By the way, this was Lamar's highest graded game overall and in passing grade for the season. He's up to 85 for his season grade, which ranks 6th.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Gradezz

[Slidemaster]

A couple things...

First, it doesn't matter that he's the top paid guy at the time he signs. That's temporary. His overall contract is important, because it influences what the rest of the team can do, but his ranking among QBs is irrelevant. And if you think it does, then a year after he signs his deal he'll be like the 6th or 7th highest paid guy as the leapfrog game continues. I also am not convinced he'll be the top paid guy in AAV even at signing, though I do think he'll get the most guaranteed money.

Second, you don't sign him if you think what he's done this season and the tail end of 2021 is what he'll do moving forward.

Third, I think its a bad assessment if you think that what he's done this year is what he will do moving forward. We've seen him play at a very high level in the past and for significant stretches. Right now he's at the back end of the top third or so in the league, I'd say. And this year has been a bit of a struggle year for him relative to expectations and past performance. If he gets the groove back then I think he's right back to top few guys in the league. He's consistently been in the top third of the league, often much higher near the top few guys if not #1. So if he's 10th best or whatever this year, how many of the guys ahead of him would you expect to repeat their seasons? Improve? I think the less-than-stellar (but still top 10-12) play we've seen from Lamar this year is a low point, and I fully expect more like top-3 or 5 or whatever performance from him moving forward.

You sign him if you think he'll be worht the money moving forward and if that's a viable path to your goals. This isn't a gun-to-head situation. Its a willing commitment. I still think Lamar is a far better bet for the organization than is a bunch of draft picks and cap space and needing to find the next QB. Maybe that assessment will change over the final 6 games. If we don't see any strong games from him, that'd be quite concerning.

I'd like to point out that he was mediocre last year prior to his injury as well. This isn't a "this year" thing.

[Mike in STL]

I'm taking Mahomes crew every day of the week.

Kelce and Juju trump Andrews and whatever we have at WR.

JuJu hasn't been anything special since 2018. He had a lot of catches in 2019 cause Roethlisberger threw a 1000 times, but only averaged 8.6 yards per catch. But he's been a complete dud since. Hardman is basically Duvernay. Valdez-Scantling is just a guy just like Demarcus Robinson is just a guy. They traded for Kadarius Toney for upside but the guy is made of glass. He's been injured more than Rashod Bateman if I had to guess.

 

Sure Kelce is on another planet. But Andrews is #2. Even saw yesterday that Mahomes stared him down on two consecutive red zone passes and the first was alonst picked off and the second one was picked off. If Lamar did that half this board would be ready to ship him out of town. 

 

Gus is better than any RB the Chiefs have. I'd argue that the Ravens O-line is better. 

 

I'd say at full health, give me Dobbins, Bateman, Stanley, the Chiefs supporting cast around Mahomes is equal, if not a touch worse than the Ravens is around Lamar. Advantage Kelce. Close on the O-line with Humphrey/Linderbaum. Moses has been good for us, Zeus Jr for them. With Tyreek Hill gone, their receivers are JAGs who will over perform thanks to the guy under center. Put JuJu on almost any other team and he's irrelevant.

[Mackus]

Mahomes signed a team friendly deal early in his career, before QB salaries exploded. The Ravens may or may not have had this option with Lamar.

Also, I don't think you'll get a single dissent if you say that Mahomes is a better QB. If you argue that he's the only one worthy if a 50 million a year deal, well, I understand that viewpoint. I also think that Mahomes gets 60 million a year if he gets an open market deal.

 

Yeah, Mahomes is head and shoulders above everyone else IMO.  He'll get re-upped soonish and blow everyone else out of the water, with a deal that the other guys won't leap frog.  His deal was done first, and was a mile more than anyone else had signed for at the time.  Everyone else has caught up and passed him, but he is turn is coming again soon and I think he's worth way more than everyone else.  I said a couple days ago that he's the only guy I think is clearly better than Lamar.  Allen perhaps, definitely recently and he's got the bona fides to go head to head.  Everyone else I think I can make a stronger case for Lamar than the other guys unless we're being hyper focused on the most recent calendar year without much consideration for longer-term consistency and performance. 

 

And regardless, the choice isn't between Lamar and one of those guys, so while its fun to rank guys, its meaningless as a roster-building exercise.  The choice is Lamar versus a complete unknown in the draft or one of the lesser guys who another team would let get away.  I think you can make a case for the other options (draftee moreso than castaway), but I think Lamar is still decidedly the better bet amongst the three possible choices.

[Mackus]

I guess "sign Lamar" versus "franchise Lamar" are both plausible options underneath the "keep Lamar" heading.  I'd prefer to sign him for cap reasons and because I think eventually he proves that its the best option anyways. But there is significant appeal in continuing to play it year-by-year if he lets you do that.  Certainly the scale has been tipping away from a long-term deal for Lamar each year he's let it go longer, though I think the rising cost of doing so is the bigger reason as to why rather than Lamar's performance.

[hallas]

Yeah, Mahomes is head and shoulders above everyone else IMO.  He'll get re-upped soonish and blow everyone else out of the water, with a deal that the other guys won't leap frog.  His deal was done first, and was a mile more than anyone else had signed for at the time.  Everyone else has caught up and passed him, but he is turn is coming again soon and I think he's worth way more than everyone else.  I said a couple days ago that he's the only guy I think is clearly better than Lamar.  Allen perhaps, definitely recently and he's got the bona fides to go head to head.  Everyone else I think I can make a stronger case for Lamar than the other guys unless we're being hyper focused on the most recent calendar year without much consideration for longer-term consistency and performance. 

 

And regardless, the choice isn't between Lamar and one of those guys, so while its fun to rank guys, its meaningless as a roster-building exercise.  The choice is Lamar versus a complete unknown in the draft or one of the lesser guys who another team would let get away.  I think you can make a case for the other options (draftee moreso than castaway), but I think Lamar is still decidedly the better bet amongst the three possible choices.

 

I would have said Allen is definitely better before he hurt his elbow.  But that injury kind of casts a shadow on him going forward.  He's looked like dog for the most part since he hurt himself, with the possible exception of last week vs the Browns.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

At this point, there's no way the Ravens can pay Lamar what he wants.

There is and they will. Ok maybe there is some work around to fully guaranteed but they will guarantee at least as much as Watson

[hallas]

Gradezz

 

Welp, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with the 59 grade the defense got, or the 47 grade the coverage unit got.

 

Do you disagree that Lamar's receivers dropped 5 passes?  I counted 4 and I didn't even watch the whole game.  Duvernay, Oliver, Andrews, Drake.  Looks like Demarcus Robinson dropped one when I wasn't looking.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Mackus has time and again later out very cleanly the risks and rewards of extending him. I personally disagree with the conclusions he makes and think we’ll be doomed to mediocrity, but I see his case. Especially with the inflated QB market in general. With so many teams overpaying for QB’s, more teams will win with depleted rosters. So it’s kind of the new normal. I think they’ll extend him ultimately.

This thread is doomed to mediocrity with some of these takes yall have.