429 replies to this topic

[BobPhelan]

Joey Ortiz is too good to be traded and Joey Ortiz should be a bench player for years to come are weird positions to have simultaneously.

Except neither of those are what have been said. Joey Ortiz shouldn’t be traded just because we have too many good players unless it is a deal relative to his value. I’d prefer to keep him in a part time role if the right deal isn’t there. I’d also personally prefer to trade Westburg over Ortiz.

[Mackus]

I'd take 95 cents on the dollar for Ortiz or Westburg in order to declutter a bit and not have to use either in a reserve role with only maybe 250 PA available. Especially if Holliday is expected to reach the majors early in 2024 rather than late. I wouldn't take 80 cents.

[mweb08]

Except neither of those are what have been said. Joey Ortiz shouldn’t be traded just because we have too many good players unless it is a deal relative to his value. I’d prefer to keep him in a part time role if the right deal isn’t there. I’d also personally prefer to trade Westburg over Ortiz.

I actually think what I said is a pretty fair representative of what's going on but sorry that you disagree.

Speaking of what people are saying, my position is of course to trade him for good value. Now I'm not sure why people seem to be so skeptical of that happening. The primary reason why no team would meet you or 2035's or Elias' asking price, is if that price basically reflected an opinion that Ortiz is too good to be traded unless we're blown away.

Your stance on preferring Ortiz to Westburg also seemingly suggests that you value Joey very highly, which is cool and I highly respect your take on our young players.

So again, I don't think I'm off-base in thinking that some are very resistant to trading Ortiz.

I have no issue being high enough on Ortiz to strongly prefer keeping him either. I do have issue with the default position having Ortiz as a bench player or a shared role with Westburg though, which is a position seemingly held by multiple people on here.

Based on his performance and what you and others have said about Ortiz, he's easily deserved a chance to start everyday and I'd be excited for him to get the opportunity to do so. To achieve that, there's two non radical options: trade Westburg or slow play Holliday. I actually lean toward the latter, so yeah, let's keep Ortiz!

[CantonJester]

I actually think what I said is a pretty fair representative of what's going on but sorry that you disagree.

Speaking of what people are saying, my position is of course to trade him for good value. Now I'm not sure why people seem to be so skeptical of that happening. The primary reason why no team would meet you or 2035's or Elias' asking price, is if that price basically reflected an opinion that Ortiz is too good to be traded unless we're blown away.

Your stance on preferring Ortiz to Westburg also seemingly suggests that you value Joey very highly, which is cool and I highly respect your take on our young players.

So again, I don't think I'm off-base in thinking that some are very resistant to trading Ortiz.

I have no issue being high enough on Ortiz to strongly prefer keeping him either. I do have issue with the default position having Ortiz as a bench player or a shared role with Westburg though, which is a position seemingly held by multiple people on here.

Based on his performance and what you and others have said about Ortiz, he's easily deserved a chance to start everyday and I'd be excited for him to get the opportunity to do so. To achieve that, there's two non radical options: trade Westburg or slow play Holliday. I actually lean toward the latter, so yeah, let's keep Ortiz!

 

Completely disagree with this approach. Jackson's not going to realize his potential by feeding off of crappy breaking balls. If he's ready for AAA, then he needs to be in AAA. 

[mweb08]

I'd take 95 cents on the dollar for Ortiz or Westburg in order to declutter a bit and not have to use either in a reserve role with only maybe 250 PA available. Especially if Holliday is expected to reach the majors early in 2024 rather than late. I wouldn't take 80 cents.

Sure. Now why would they have to take 80 cents on the dollar? Especially if they made both available and took the best deal for one of them, but even if they make a choice, several teams should be highly interested.

[mweb08]

Completely disagree with this approach. Jackson's not going to realize his potential by feeding off of crappy breaking balls. If he's ready for AAA, then he needs to be in AAA.

I didn't say anything about keeping him in AA. I'm talking about slow playing his eventual promotion to the majors to late 2024 / start of 2025 with the purpose of giving both Ortiz and Westburg full opportunity next year and securing an extra year of service from Holliday while he checks some final development boxes.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

News flash. Ortiz' value is only what you can actually get for him. No more and no less.

 

If no team offers what someone thinks is true value then that someone has to decide if what they did offer you is of more value than keeping him as a part time player.

[CantonJester]

I didn't say anything about keeping him in AA. I'm talking about slow playing his eventual promotion to the majors to late 2024 / start of 2025 with the purpose of giving both Ortiz and Westburg full opportunity next year and securing an extra year of service from Holliday while he checks some final development boxes.

 

The reason people are pushing for him to get a cup of coffee late this season or to make the big league club out of ST next year is because he's a wunderkind prospect. Hot take: If he's staying in AAA for even half of next year, it's likely because they're getting him some reps in the OF. 

[BobPhelan]

The reason people are pushing for him to get a cup of coffee late this season or to make the big league club out of ST next year is because he's a wunderkind prospect. Hot take: If he's staying in AAA for even half of next year, it's likely because they're getting him some reps in the OF.

It’s going to be impossible to slow play Holliday to the point of late 2024, early 2025 which is why I think he makes the team out of spring next year.

[dude]

It’s going to be impossible to slow play Holliday to the point of late 2024, early 2025 which is why I think he makes the team out of spring next year.

 

There are zero reasons for him not to play AAA until September next year unless they do what I suggested earlier.

[mweb08]

It’s going to be impossible to slow play Holliday to the point of late 2024, early 2025 which is why I think he makes the team out of spring next year.

Very difficult sure, but not impossible.

It's perfectly reasonable to hold him in AA the rest of this season which would probably lead to having to prove himself at AAA next year. At that point it's not unreasonable to demand at least a half season or so of strong performance before promoting him unless circumstances provide an earlier opportunity. The key though is if Gunnar, Westburg, and Ortiz are all playing well then it becomes easier to wait. If however one is not playing well and loses their job to Holliday then good luck getting even what you'd currently think is 80 cents on the dollar in a trade. 60 cents might be optimistic at that point.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I find it highly unlikely he breaks camp on the OD roster. Think May is possible but more likely he tracks like Westburg or Cowser did this year

[BobPhelan]

I find it highly unlikely he breaks camp on the OD roster. Think May is possible but more likely he tracks like Westburg or Cowser did this year

If you think May is possible you might as well make it April and be eligible for the extra draft pick. Another offseason of improvement and he’s going to make AAA look like low A.

[BobPhelan]

Very difficult sure, but not impossible.

It's perfectly reasonable to hold him in AA the rest of this season which would probably lead to having to prove himself at AAA next year. At that point it's not unreasonable to demand at least a half season or so of strong performance before promoting him unless circumstances provide an earlier opportunity. The key though is if Gunnar, Westburg, and Ortiz are all playing well then it becomes easier to wait. If however one is not playing well and loses their job to Holliday then good luck getting even what you'd currently think is 80 cents on the dollar in a trade. 60 cents might be optimistic at that point.

Seems unfair to the player to artificially hold him down an extra year.

[mweb08]

Seems unfair to the player to artificially hold him down an extra year.

I don't think it's holding him down an entire extra year at all. He has less than 100 plate appearances in AA with a month left in the season. Without aggressive promoting, he'll get his first action in AAA to start next year. Roughly a half of year of AAA is not exactly slow playing him unless he's absolutely dominating or circumstances call for it. Then midway through next year is the time where the organization would start to consider a call up, and part of that thinking would of course include how the O's current infielders are doing. Meanwhile Jackson will still be 5 months from getting his first legal drink.

I don't find that unfair at all. Now if all of Gunnar, Westburg, and Ortiz are healthy and playing well, then sure, that sucks for Jackson if he's crushing it, but a spot will still open up at some point that season (one of the arguments for keeping all 4 infielders is that injuries happen) or Elias would clear the way for the following season if not earlier.

Now if Jackson is up and Westburg is still a starter for the O's, Joey Ortiz will be on the verge of turning 26 (July 14) having earned a starting role, yet will be a bench player if injuries or poor performance don't push him into one. Talk about unfair.

Create proper opportunity somewhere for Ortiz, Westburg, and Holliday (after he's proven himself in AAA) and then we won't have to think much about fairness here. Speaking of fair, obviously they should get fair value for whoever they trade, but we as O's fans need to be realistic with what fair is too. That can be hard to do when we've been following these guys for years and hoping to see them playing well for the O's. I'd imagine even harder for anyone that follows the minors in a very serious way and is very high on said player(s).

[BobPhelan]

I don't think it's holding him down an entire extra year at all. He has less than 100 plate appearances in AA with a month left in the season. Without aggressive promoting, he'll get his first action in AAA to start next year. Roughly a half of year of AAA is not exactly slow playing him unless he's absolutely dominating or circumstances call for it. Then midway through next year is the time where the organization would start to consider a call up, and part of that thinking would of course include how the O's current infielders are doing. Meanwhile Jackson will still be 5 months from getting his first legal drink.

I don't find that unfair at all. Now if all of Gunnar, Westburg, and Ortiz are healthy and playing well, then sure, that sucks for Jackson if he's crushing it, but a spot will still open up at some point that season (one of the arguments for keeping all 4 infielders is that injuries happen) or Elias would clear the way for the following season if not earlier.

Now if Jackson is up and Westburg is still a starter for the O's, Joey Ortiz will be on the verge of turning 26 (July 14) having earned a starting role, yet will be a bench player if injuries or poor performance don't push him into one. Talk about unfair.

Create proper opportunity somewhere for Ortiz, Westburg, and Holliday (after he's proven himself in AAA) and then we won't have to think much about fairness here. Speaking of fair, obviously they should get fair value for whoever they trade, but we as O's fans need to be realistic with what fair is too. That can be hard to do when we've been following these guys for years and hoping to see them playing well for the O's. I'd imagine even harder for anyone that follows the minors in a very serious way and is very high on said player(s).

Holliday will bare minimum get a week+ of time in AAA because the AA season ends a week before AAA, he’ll be up for the final week plus playoffs.

Then the decision comes down to do you give a generational prospect (he’s a better prospect than Adley and Gunnar the past couple years) the chance to earn you an extra draft pick or do you forfeit that to give him a few extra months in AAA. Waiting until the end of 2024 is what I think will be impossible.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I dont think it will be the end of '24 but I still value the extra year of service time over a draft pick. Granted, it doesnt have to be either or if you do extensions but the Os have shown no willingness to do extensions. For example, I sure am glad we send GRod down and gained his '29 season of service time. Having that extra year will likely only look better and better as time goes on

[BobPhelan]

I dont think it will be the end of '24 but I still value the extra year of service time over a draft pick. Granted, it doesnt have to be either or if you do extensions but the Os have shown no willingness to do extensions. For example, I sure am glad we send GRod down and gained his '29 season of service time. Having that extra year will likely only look better and better as time goes on

That fair. I think Holliday is a pretty realistic extension candidate but I doubt it happens until 2025.

[mweb08]

Holliday will bare minimum get a week+ of time in AAA because the AA season ends a week before AAA, he’ll be up for the final week plus playoffs.

Then the decision comes down to do you give a generational prospect (he’s a better prospect than Adley and Gunnar the past couple years) the chance to earn you an extra draft pick or do you forfeit that to give him a few extra months in AAA. Waiting until the end of 2024 is what I think will be impossible.

One week and AAA playoffs isn't generally enough to then go straight to the majors.

But if they deem him ready to start the year and forego the extra year of service, then great, trade someone to open up opportunity for all these infielders who deserve to be everyday players while bringing back talent that fits better in the organization.

[BobPhelan]

One week and AAA playoffs isn't generally enough to then go straight to the majors.

But if they deem him ready to start the year and forego the extra year of service, then great, trade someone to open up opportunity for all these infielders who deserve to be everyday players while bringing back talent that fits better in the organization.

I generally agree but Holliday at the very least could be an exception.

I agree an infielder will and should be traded this offseason to acquire pitching, I just think it’ll be Norby as far the ones right on the cusp of the majors.