429 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I dont think Holliday breaks camp with the Os. I expect the starting Inf to be Westburg, Ortiz, and Henderson breaking camp. Obviously Holliday gets in the mix soon enough but if its 4 guys for 3 spots with Westburg at least playing some OF in AAA I dont think it will be an issue getting all 4 enough ABs. See how the Os are doing it right now juggling Frazier, Mateo, Urias, and Westburg. Granted, Mateo isnt really in the mix anymore but Urias, Westburg, and Frazier are chopping up the PT between 3b and 2b. Now, Urias if they keep him then it adds one more person to the Os glut. Norby def is blocked as well. So we essentially are at a point where a few guys just arent going to get any run on the ML team and Id be more willing to find just a solid trade for Urias or Norby. Those are the two guys Id prefer to trade. Westburg and Ortiz Im keeping them unless I really like the deal. Ill find the ABs.

[hallas]

I don't think it's cool on a human level to tell one of these guys that they're essentially a bench player that will only get a real opportunity if someone gets hurt. These guys aren't young as Steve mentioned. Ortiz is 25 and Westburg is 24 and a half. Their time is now; open up the opportunity or trade one of them where they'll get that chance. It's not even like a hey, just wait a year until so and so is gone. It's wait for several years, but hey you may Wally Pipp someone at some point!

 

I know some may not care much about treating people well in what is essentially the business world, but I also don't think that's a good use of resources unless the trade market is shockingly poor for Westburg and Ortiz (the trade market will more likely than not get worse for whoever is primarily riding the pine as well). 

 

They also have good infield depth even if they deal one of them, so I'm not stressed about that. 

 

Also, and this is really unfortunate, but the time where we (and Elias) start contemplating trading Gunnar will likely be here faster than we'd prefer. 

 

 

Who would you trade Gunnar for though, and if you trade him who plays 3rd?  I guess Ortiz or Holliday can, but it just doesn't seem like an optimal position for either player.

 

The list of players I'd trade Gunnar for is breathtakingly short as well.  George Kirby?  Spencer Strider?  Maybe Alcantara?  I can't think of too many others.

 

I think that if we traded for one of those guys AND Ortiz/Holliday both develop and can cover SS/3B, then that's a really really good team.

[mweb08]

Who would you trade Gunnar for though, and if you trade him who plays 3rd? I guess Ortiz or Holliday can, but it just doesn't seem like an optimal position for either player.

The list of players I'd trade Gunnar for is breathtakingly short as well. George Kirby? Spencer Strider? Maybe Alcantara? I can't think of too many others.

I think that if we traded for one of those guys AND Ortiz/Holliday both develop and can cover SS/3B, then that's a really really good team.

I'm not suggesting trading him now although I wouldn't rule it out since he'll probably be traded a little over 3 years from now and there is all this other infield talent.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Never say never but we are 3+ years away from Gunnar realistically being moved. Ill be shocked if they think about it through his first arb year. Once we are talking about his arb 2 year then you have to take it serious. Thats heading into the 2027 season.

[mweb08]

I dont think Holliday breaks camp with the Os. I expect the starting Inf to be Westburg, Ortiz, and Henderson breaking camp. Obviously Holliday gets in the mix soon enough but if its 4 guys for 3 spots with Westburg at least playing some OF in AAA I dont think it will be an issue getting all 4 enough ABs. See how the Os are doing it right now juggling Frazier, Mateo, Urias, and Westburg. Granted, Mateo isnt really in the mix anymore but Urias, Westburg, and Frazier are chopping up the PT between 3b and 2b. Now, Urias if they keep him then it adds one more person to the Os glut. Norby def is blocked as well. So we essentially are at a point where a few guys just arent going to get any run on the ML team and Id be more willing to find just a solid trade for Urias or Norby. Those are the two guys Id prefer to trade. Westburg and Ortiz Im keeping them unless I really like the deal. Ill find the ABs.

You'll find the ABs when someone is hurt, not so much otherwise imo. Westburg isn't seeing much of any time in the outfield for instance other than in emergencies unless some players are dealt there and/or Cowser and Kjerstad flop.

The one thing I can get behind is planning on holding off on Holliday until late next season at the earliest unless there's a significant injury or underperformance (maintaining ROY eligibility for 2025) which would give Ortiz legit opportunity and delay the clock on Jackson. Now some may say that's not trading Holliday right, but he's still 19 with under 100 AA plate appearances under his belt so I don't think that'd be egregious.

[mweb08]

Never say never but we are 3+ years away from Gunnar realistically being moved. Ill be shocked if they think about it through his first arb year. Once we are talking about his arb 2 year then you have to take it serious. Thats heading into the 2027 season.

He should be traded by that point unless an extension can be worked out or they're good with just losing him to free agency.

[hallas]

Never say never but we are 3+ years away from Gunnar realistically being moved. Ill be shocked if they think about it through his first arb year. Once we are talking about his arb 2 year then you have to take it serious. Thats heading into the 2027 season.

 

if it was for Strider or Kirby would you entertain it this offseason?  Atlanta could use a SS, and Seattle needs impact position players everywhere.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im good with our SP or what we should be able to do with our SP. Pitching is too volitile for my taste. Il take the young talented position player if all things are relatively equal. It would be hard for me to trade Gunnar for anyone. Acuna considering his team friendly deal and performance.

[mweb08]

Like I said, I'm good with Holliday staying in the minors and being the guy that steps in if opportunity presents itself, but if he's up early next year, we have 4 everyday starters for 3 spots, with little room for them elsewhere. So no, I don't think they'll find proper playing time for all of them, although the PT may find them through injury and/or poor performance. If it's the latter though, now that underperforming player has depleted value.

No one that wants Holliday up early next year and wants to keep everyone disagrees with me about these guys being everyday players either. Anyone that disagrees would want to deal whoever they don't feel is deserving of everyday play next year because other teams certainly value them as everyday players.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I just think they will find more than enough ABs for the 4 guys even if all 4 are healthy and performing. Not worried about screwing one of them over at all. If they find a trade they really like then by all means trade Jordan or Joey. Worrying about whether they are being screwed in some way because we have too many good players plays no part in moving them for me.

[BSLChrisStoner]

As I've said in other threads, I would think Ortiz breaks camp as the SS. 

I have no problem starting the year like that, and seeing what happens, even with the expectation of Holliday being up by June or so.

 

Also no problem with trading Ortiz.  (Know some would prefer to trade Westburg.) 

 

I don't feel any obligation to trade them. 
Do think there is an argument that trading Ortiz this Winter makes more sense value wise. 

 

OTOH, injuries do happen...  and even if you start the year with Henderson 3rd, Ortiz SS, Westburg 2nd, and Holiday in the wings... by June; it's quite possible that one of them is injured, and you'd be happy to have that depth. 

It's one of those harder decisions when you are built to contend. 

 

Of course, you could still have Urias and/or Mateo as existing options, and whatever Ortiz (and others, as you'd expect he would be part of a package) brought in-return. 

[mweb08]

I just think they will find more than enough ABs for the 4 guys even if all 4 are healthy and performing. Not worried about screwing one of them over at all. If they find a trade they really like then by all means trade Jordan or Joey. Worrying about whether they are being screwed in some way because we have too many good players plays no part in moving them for me.

If Holliday is up, he and Gunnar are everyday players. So you're essentially splitting one position between Westburg and Ortiz while one occasionally fills in for the true everyday players. That's for next year and beyond. I'd rather trade one than plan on both being at 75-100 starts a year or one guy getting more consistent time with the other primarily being a bench player. Trading one is both using resources more efficiently (because their value is that of an everyday player) and giving all the players the opportunity they've earned.

I have no problem delaying that trade decision back a year though if confidence is high in both Ortiz and Westburg, while pushing back the clock on Holliday. That's likely what Elias is thinking imo. I'd actually guess that Elias was projecting Holliday becoming the starter in 2026 after a trade of one of these other guys, but Jackson has been messing with that possible plan in a good way.

Btw, props to you on your Holliday draft position!

[TwentyThirtyFive]

If Holliday is up, he and Gunnar are everyday players. So you're essentially splitting one position between Westburg and Ortiz while one occasionally fills in for the true everyday players. That's for next year and beyond. I'd rather trade one than plan on both being at 75-100 starts a year or one guy getting more consistent time with the other primarily being a bench player. Trading one is both using resources more efficiently (because their value is that of an everyday player) and giving all the players the opportunity they've earned.

I have no problem delaying that trade decision back a year though if confidence is high in both Ortiz and Westburg, while pushing back the clock on Holliday. That's likely what Elias is thinking imo. I'd actually guess that Elias was projecting Holliday becoming the starter in 2026 after a trade of one of these other guys, but Jackson has been messing with that possible plan in a good way.

Btw, props to you on your Holliday draft position!

Ideally yes. This isnt an OOTP world though. You have to find a partner that can give you what you need. The return has to be something that helps the ML team contend. Not making the OOTP comment to be an ass either. I just think it can be easier said than done.

 

 

As far as Holliday goes, I was comfortable with a few different guys on draft day. Not gonna act like Jackson was my guy all along. I did say pretty soon after though that I really thought they nailed it. Mostly I just had a ton of trust in Ciolek and the FO.

[mweb08]

Ideally yes. This isnt an OOTP world though. You have to find a partner that can give you what you need. The return has to be something that helps the ML team contend. Not making the OOTP comment to be an ass either. I just think it can be easier said than done.

Actually I was thinking that keeping both of them is more of an OOTP move because it's easy not to care about giving earned opportunity to made up baseball players lol.

Yes, you have to find a partner. I don't think that should be all that difficult though. This may surprise you, but I wouldn't limit that to getting players that will immediately help the O's contend although that'd be preferred.

[mweb08]

As far as Holliday goes, I was comfortable with a few different guys on draft day. Not gonna act like Jackson was my guy all along. I did say pretty soon after though that I really thought they nailed it. Mostly I just had a ton of trust in Ciolek and the FO.

Well my dude has fallen short of expectations so far.

I used the word short just for you lol.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Well my dude has fallen short of expectations so far.

I used the word short just for you lol.

Johnson has been fine. Hes young too. 23rd on MLB Pipeline. Just shows how amazing Holliday has been to jump to the top of prospects lists so quickly

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I just think they will find more than enough ABs for the 4 guys even if all 4 are healthy and performing. Not worried about screwing one of them over at all. If they find a trade they really like then by all means trade Jordan or Joey. Worrying about whether they are being screwed in some way 

Basically that means you are taking one of those 4 out of the lineup most every night? Can't use them DH much. Adley is going to DH twice a week. Then you have Mountcastle/Santander/Ohearn (if he's still on the team). That's 2 more DHs a week at least. So doesn't seem like DH is much of an option .I want Gunnar's bat in the lineup most every game except for rests. Suspect its going to be the same with Holliday. So perhaps Ortiz and Westburg could share duties with them taking Gunnar's and Holliday's off days too. Coupled with an occasional DH I guess that could work. But this also means that none of the OFers are going to be used at DH.

 

Good problem to have! But I'd still look (the key word being look) to trade one of Norby, Ortiz, and Westburg as part of a deal to get me another front end starter.

[BobPhelan]

Yeah well Ill keep all 4 if I dont get the value I want in a trade. Injuries can occur. Can use all 4 anyway. Realistically only talking about trading Ortiz or Westburg. Holliday and Gunnar arent being traded anytime soon.

 

Exactly. Even if Holliday breaks camp with the team (which is what I see happening) you can use Ortiz the way Ramon Urias has been the past couple years except Ortiz is better defensively and can play SS. You mix him in 3-4 times a week and if someone goes down he slides right into a starting role. Norby is the one that doesn't really fit anymore barring injuries.

[hallas]

Got tossed last night. Didn’t look like much, but must’ve said something. As he should’ve. Terrible call of course.

https://twitter.com/...60M8ZOe1IyiordQ

 

I missed this from earlier but what a soft ejection.  Playing ump show in AA is a joke.

[mweb08]

Joey Ortiz is too good to be traded and Joey Ortiz should be a bench player for years to come are weird positions to have simultaneously.