3122 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

They didn't abandon the run in that game until after the Lamar fumble the second half which at that point was the only choice left.  I've posted the play-by-play multiple times before, you can search for it.  Identify the passing plays before the score got out of hand that you think they should have run instead.  I think there are a few, but not much more than that.  I've never seen any of the people who keep saying that they abandoned the run too early go and actually show me what plays we should have run on.  Give it a try.  Otherwise, I think its a pretty weak argument and has been for 3 years now.

[makoman]

The comments about Gus only getting 3 snaps have me completely dumbfounded. There's no logical reason to essentially throw yourself under the bus over a glaring personnel issue unless you're already out the door.

I could see it, assuming the reports were true that Bisciotti was close to firing Harbs a couple years ago before Lamar turned things around. This season has just had a different feel, like the players are being lost a little bit. That's what did in Billick.

 

But I also think these comments are more that he is laying the groundwork to part with Roman this off season. We saw him criticize Wink in the press last year at least once, talking about going to the cover 0 well too many times. Now we have this, after criticizing the trick play the other week.

[Ravens2006]

When I say the abandoned the run, I mean the running game as a WHOLE, including actual RBs.

 

Gus Edwards carried twice for 19 yards on the first drive, then had one carry in the final 53 minutes of game time.

 

Mark Ingram had 5 carries in the first 23 minutes, then had one carry in the final 37 minutes of game time.

 

5 of their 9 RB rush attempts came in the first 14 minutes of the game.  The final 46 minutes, RBs carried the ball 4 times total.

 

Lamar did 80% of the running from the second quarter on.  John compounded the situation with 4th down attempts vs. taking points and/or flipping field position.  The first drive after the 14-0 hole was a three drop backs and out.  Lamar got credited with a 2 yard rush, but that was a pass dropback with an empty backfield.

 

That's "abandoning" the running game to me, and making it 100% the Lamar show.

 

If you really want some specific plays...

 

2nd quarter

1-and-10, 14:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 9:57... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 6:47... pass incomplete

 

The last drive of the first half, okay, with 2:32 left they got the ball.  They threw complete for 5 yards on first down.  Great.  Hurry up, throw a lot, no huddle time.  Except... they still didn't manage to get another snap off before the two minute warning.  They actually huddled up at about 2:15, meandered to the line, Lamar shifted some players around, and the clock hit 2:00 before they could snap it.  So remarkably, where you're probably trying to get multiple plays off before the warning, they still couldn't make it happen.  Could have just as easily RUN on first down there too. 

 

3rd quarter

1-and-10, 14:55... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 13:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 12:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 11:09... pass incomplete

 

Before the first 4th down stuff, they ran on 1st down every time (6 snaps).  Run on first, usually gain positive yardage, keeps your options a little more open / defense thinking about more options.  They were 2nd and long so much that they never got to that "impose your will" on the defensive line phase.

 

After the stuff and subsequent quick long TD, they threw on first down 13 of the next 14 first down snaps.  A lot of incompletes, putting them in second and long real quick (behind the sticks as John likes to say).

[Mackus]

Glad you at least identified a few plays that you think were bad calls.  I agree that drive is an example where different calls should've been made.  One of the few from that game, IMO.  And of course the 3rd-and-8 has to be a pass so you're really looking at one or two plays that drive.

 

Lamar keeps count as running plays.  With the read option they have no idea in the huddle if a play as called is going to go to Lamar or the back.  Lamar scrambles do not count as running plays, those are pass plays that have a safety valve.  I absolutely disagree that called Lamar runs or read-options that Lamar reads as a keeper shouldn't count as running plays.  That is wildly illogical to me.  Lamar was the greatest weapon on the planet that season.  Its ludicrous to suggest giving him the ball is somehow a mistake.  I'd even argue that play-action passes should count as much as running looks as passing plays, since its the read the defense makes at the snap. I don't think the play-by-play calls out playaction though, so might be hard to track retroactively.

[PrimeTime]

I don't think he was throwing his OC under the bus.  He admitted to a mistake.  Shouldn't have made the mistake, but it was made, so acknowledge it and fix it moving forward.  Better than denying that it was even a problem.

 

Conspiracy theories are usually fun, and yours here is harmless, but I think you're reading way more into a relatively usual course of Ravens business.

 

That's why I gave the caveat that it was a hot take.

 

With that said, the "business as usual" has become untenable for me. The deflection and out and out disdain towards the media, the cloak and dagger non answers over everything from injury updates to legitimate concerns about in game occurrences and the constant feigning ignorance from the man in charge, it's all becoming too much.

[Mackus]

With that said, the "business as usual" has become untenable for me. The deflection and out and out disdain towards the media, the cloak and dagger non answers over everything from injury updates to legitimate concerns about in game occurrences and the constant feigning ignorance from the man in charge, it's all becoming too much.

 

I think this is a fine opinion that many share (not me, at least not to the extend I'd take action on Harbaugh) but this is your opinion on whether to retain Harbaugh or not based on his coaching record.  There is a major gap between that opinion and thinking that Harbaugh and Bisciotti actually already have an understanding that they're both done after the year.  Harbaugh has a huge amount of money owed him, is able to collect double salaries if he gets fired and hired elsewhere, and there is no mechanism for the team to get out of that unless he walks away.  I see no way that conversation even gets started at this point or weeks ago.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

What are the details on Harbs contract. Dont need an amount but how many years are left?

[makoman]

What are the details on Harbs contract. Dont need an amount but how many years are left?

Through 2025. Seems like $12M per year after his previous contract being $9M, but money is hard to find officially.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Through 2025. Seems like $12M per year after his previous contract being $9M, but money is hard to find officially.

During the year last year I thought I read '22 was the last year on his deal. Did he sign an extension this past offseason? If he did I missed it.

[makoman]

During the year last year I thought I read '23 was the last year on his deal. Did he sign an extension this past offseason? If he did I missed it.

This season was previously his last, signed extension in March.

 

https://www.baltimor...tract-extension

[Mackus]

If you really want some specific plays...

 

2nd quarter

1-and-10, 14:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 9:57... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 6:47... pass incomplete

 

 

3rd quarter

1-and-10, 14:55... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 13:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 12:39... pass incomplete

1-and-10, 11:09... pass incomplete

 

So 7 plays.  All first downs.  You can't always run on 1st, but agree that throwing on 7 of them feels like a lot.  Below are all the first down plays before they got down 28-6 (excluding the end-of-half drive you mentioned).  I bolded ones where they converted for a first following the play (not necessarily on the first down play).  They were very balanced early, heavy run actually, and then got pass happy as the 3rd quarter began.  Of the 8 first down PASSES at the end of this list, they converted a first down following four of them, so the playcall didn't prevent them from doing much.

 

Lamar scramble (PASS)

Ingram run

Edwards run

Edwards run

Ingram run

Lamar run

Lamar PASS

Ingram run

Lamar PASS

Lamar run

Lamar PASS

Lamar PASS

Lamar PASS

Lamar PASS

Lamar PASS

Lamar PASS (the fumble)

 

This just doesn't seem to me like the problem was run/pass selection.  The problem was that first- and second-down runs often didn't get the same chunk yardage they were getting most of the way and the drives often ended very poorly (the pick, the two failed 4th-and-1s which were both runs).  I don't think more running early changes much.  I do think more running on the first 3rd quarter should have happened and is worthy of criticism.  But that's not close to the same as "abandoning the run". 

[Mike in STL]

Hot take alert.... I think Harbs and Bisciotti have already mutually agreed to part ways at the end of the season.

Super hot take alert. Harbaugh will coach the Ravens in 2023. Not John.

Just kidding. But I could certainly see a scenario where ownership wants to see Lamar under a whole new regime. Maybe changes entice Lamar to play under the tag and prove himself. Maybe changes elevate his game to the point where he earns elite $$. Maybe Lamar doesn’t thrive under the change and then ownership knows they can’t pay him what he wants, and it’s up to the new regime to find the next guy.

[NewMarketSean]

Biscotti has talked about the importance of consistency in coaching so I don't think John is going anywhere unless he decides to go on his own or Biscotti is forced to make the decision because the results aren't there.

 

Two losing seasons (without a bunch of injuries) would probably do it.

[Mackus]

I think this is definitely a bad look year for Harbaugh unless Lamar comes back and they can win a postseason game.  The losses early in the year are more damning towards his coaching than the couple losses that Huntley has started.  Lots of unfulfilled potential this year even before Lamar when down.

 

I still think a great team exists in there somewhere, so if Lamar comes back strong and somewhat magically the defensive choking disappears, then I do think the team can be a threat.  But that's long odds all around, and not my current expectation.  

[Mike B]

I am always hopeful, but I would be shocked if we made any sort of run this year.

Sunday was something I expected.  The Steelers dealt a real message to those who want to run 40-50 times a game and it was obvious to me, very early in the game that we had a problem.  The Steelers were basically playing 9 guys in the box with a few wrinkles, one being they were playing 4 and at time 5 down lineman.  They were big and physicall all across the line.  They were also bringing their edge backers straight forward in an effort to keep the Ravens inside the tackle boxes.  The answer was to pass, but Huntley is just not a good passer.  The center of the field over the linebackers, was wide open, but either the Ravens did not trust him to throw deeper or he could not pull the trigger.  The other issue is the receivers.  We often have only one or two in the game.

The film from Sunday is going to go around the league.

[NewMarketSean]

Huntley should be benched for Brown regardless of what happens with Lamar.

[jamesdean]

I am always hopeful, but I would be shocked if we made any sort of run this year.

Sunday was something I expected.  The Steelers dealt a real message to those who want to run 40-50 times a game and it was obvious to me, very early in the game that we had a problem.  The Steelers were basically playing 9 guys in the box with a few wrinkles, one being they were playing 4 and at time 5 down lineman.  They were big and physicall all across the line.  They were also bringing their edge backers straight forward in an effort to keep the Ravens inside the tackle boxes.  The answer was to pass, but Huntley is just not a good passer.  The center of the field over the linebackers, was wide open, but either the Ravens did not trust him to throw deeper or he could not pull the trigger.  The other issue is the receivers.  We often have only one or two in the game.

The film from Sunday is going to go around the league.

I hear what you're saying but Dobbins was having his way with the front they presented.  There was no logical reason Edwards couldn't have been a part of that too.  I'm not sure why everyone thinks he's one dimensional and that he can't get around the edge.  When healthy, Edwards is plenty fast enough to do that.  Huntley did find Andrews on some nice passes but going forward, I think the wide receiver group is a lost cause.  The opposition knows that and have known it for some time.  Nobody needs to look at film from Sunday night because it will always be priority No. 1 to stop the run.  Even more so with Lamar in there.  I'm even more convinced that running the ball 40-50 times is the only way this team has even a remote shot at winning a play-off game. 

[Mike B]

I hear what you're saying but Dobbins was having his way with the front they presented.  There was no logical reason Edwards couldn't have been a part of that too.  I'm not sure why everyone thinks he's one dimensional and that he can't get around the edge.  When healthy, Edwards is plenty fast enough to do that.  Huntley did find Andrews on some nice passes but going forward, I think the wide receiver group is a lost cause.  The opposition knows that and have known it for some time.  Nobody needs to look at film from Sunday night because it will always be priority No. 1 to stop the run.  Even more so with Lamar in there.  I'm even more convinced that running the ball 40-50 times is the only way this team has even a remote shot at winning a play-off game. 

The Steelers were the first team that went jumbo and basically stayed in it the whole game.  At least I do not remember anyone else being that committed to jumbo.  JK had some good runs but he was not having his way.  Getting to the edge through all the traffic was the problem.

I was hoping we put 3 wides in and threw the ball.   Andrews and Likely were the only ones that got any targets.

[jamesdean]

The Steelers were the first team that went jumbo and basically stayed in it the whole game.  At least I do not remember anyone else being that committed to jumbo.  JK had some good runs but he was not having his way.  Getting to the edge through all the traffic was the problem.

I was hoping we put 3 wides in and threw the ball.   Andrews and Likely were the only ones that got any targets.

All I can tell you is that if you have any dreams of this team winning a play-off game, it's not going to be through the air.  That much I'm certain of.  Especially if we've seen the last of Lamar.  They're paying the run game genius good money to somehow overcome the obstacles, whatever they may be.  Pittsburgh has a very good run defense and it's probably the best one the Ravens will face from this point on.  

[Mackus]

I don't think they can win a playoff game without Lamar.  Would take an amazing defensive effort, probably including a score.