5364 replies to this topic

[Pedro Cerrano]

I was open to trading Lamar before it was cool.

In all seriousness, I'm fine with a good trade haul or a large-yet-reasonable extension. I am not okay with what Lamar wants.

With each passing day it seems more and more likely he won’t get what he wants

[jamesdean]

The more I hear Harbaugh get increasingly short with reporters on the topic of Lamar's injury, the more I think we've seen the last of him for the year and probably in a Ravens uniform.  I could be wrong but I think Harbaugh knows this, EDC has already begun strategizing how he's going to trade Lamar and who are the best teams to pursue.  I think he will extend Roquan Smith long term and begin to build the defense around him as he did with the offense for Lamar.  From a business standpoint, there's no benefit for Lamar to go out there less than 100% and play two games. Especially when you know they're both going to be losses.  It just doesn't make sense for him, although I don't think he'd deliberately defy Harbaugh if he was expected to play.  I think Harbs has moved on from him also and is prepared to close this chapter of his coaching career.  It saddens me to be honest but nothing lasts forever and I think Baltimore fans really need to face the music that No. 8 will be on the body of someone else next year. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

With each passing day it seems more and more likely he won’t get what he wants

Wouldnt be surprised if the guarantee is already something he has given up on. Hes still gonna get a top tier contract but he has to know that missing all these games down the stretch the last 2 years is gonna make teams question his durability. Hes not the guy who is gonna get the guaranteed money and that is understandable

[You Play to Win the Game]

I was open to trading Lamar before it was cool.

In all seriousness, I'm fine with a good trade haul or a large-yet-reasonable extension. I am not okay with what Lamar wants.

Nah our very valid reasons (related to the cap strain) are just noise. You can ONLY be open to it if your concern is durability.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Wouldnt be surprised if the guarantee is already something he has given up on. Hes still gonna get a top tier contract but he has to know that missing all these games down the stretch the last 2 years is gonna make teams question his durability. Hes not the guy who is gonna get the guaranteed money and that is understandable

I don’t see him moving off the guaranteed money at all unfortunately because someone will give it to him.

[cprenegade]

I don't see him moving off of the guarantee because he does not have an agent and he is getting financial advice from the player's union.  They are going to push him to stick with the guarantee because they want that second person busting through that ceiling so that the Watson contract is no longer the outlier.  

[hallas]

Nah our very valid reasons (related to the cap strain) are just noise. You can ONLY be open to it if your concern is durability.

He's also getting to an age where an extension takes him beyond the age where runners lose a step. A 5 year extension covering 24-28 is a lot different from one covering 26-30.

[hallas]

I don't see him moving off of the guarantee because he does not have an agent and he is getting financial advice from the player's union. They are going to push him to stick with the guarantee because they want that second person busting through that ceiling so that the Watson contract is no longer the outlier.

If he leaves the Ravens he will get either Deshaun Watson money or very close to it IMO.

Maybe with his injury issues he goes down to 190-200 fully guaranteed. That's the floor IMO. Someone will sign him for that amount though. Whether it's the Ravens or someone else remains to be seen.

[bmore_ken]

I get everyone's concern, but I still don't want to see what this team looks like without Lamar. I also don't think you hand him a blank check either. It's a scary time. 

[BSLJamieSieck]

I get everyone's concern, but I still don't want to see what this team looks like without Lamar. I also don't think you hand him a blank check either. It's a scary time.

Maybe there will be a couple of down years but I think it's time for both parties to move on. Lamar can ask for whatever he wants and I don't blame him for trying but he's not getting a fully guaranteed here or anywhere for that matter.

The Browns are stupid and did a stupid thing with the Watson deal and the union is trying to seize on that, using Lamar in the process. I don't blame them for trying but the time to change the pay structure of the league is during CBA negotiations.

[Ravens2006]

It doesn't help that Harbaugh says stuff like "we'll just coach whoever's out there" and "when he feels like he's ready he'll be ready." Makes it look like the team is pissed at the player, and maybe they are, but it isn't necessary and drives fan sentiment negative IMO. Said the same stuff about Stanley, and that one actually worked out well I think with the player taking all the time he needed.

Derek Wolfe said basically these same things a few weeks ago about how Harbaugh addressed Wolfe's injury with the media... felt like he was throwing him under the bus... along with his Saunders gripes.

[BSLMikeRandall]

I've come around to the idea that perhaps it is time to go in another direction at head coach but I just wanted to make the point that a head coach's record without their starting QB is not going to be stellar, any way you slice it.

And, at the end of the day, Harbaugh's nepotism when it comes to assistants and his undying loyalty to those assistants will either be his ouster or a black mark on his legacy.

The underachievement in the post SB era is an organization failure much more than a coaching failure, IMO. The discussions we've had about WR over the last couple of seasons are nothing new and have been going on for better than a decade. The lack of attention paid to the position, the lack of draft resources used, the veteran retreads brought in, etc.

Whether it's Ozzie's philosophy or just the organization's in general, they value defense above offense and utilize more resources in terms of draft capital and cap dollars on the defensive side of the ball. In a league that is slanted heavily toward the offense, this philosophy is no longer tenable and needs to change.

Agreed. But I think the draft has been pretty balanced when you look at picks in the top 3 rounds, or top 100 players.

2018: 4 offensive players. Hurst, LJ, Zeus Jr., Andrews,
2019: 2 offense, 1 defense. Hollywood, Ferguson, Boykin
2020: 3&3. Queen, JK, Madibuike, Duvernay, Harrison, Phillips
2021: 2&2. Bateman, Oweh, Cleveland, Stephens
2022: 1&3. Hamilton, Linderbaum, Ojabo, Jones

12-9 in favor of offense. But what have they given LJ? Two TEs, one worse than the second so they traded him. A stellar tackle who ended up wanting out of here. A good WR who later wanted out of here. A RZ target WR who ended up barely being a run blocking role player and then was let go. Stud RB who hasn’t played a full season yet, considering he was brought along so slow as a rookie. Another WR who is being underutilized. Two bad OL, one who was already let go. Another I think stud WR who can’t stay on the field. A stud Center.

Common threads are , doesn’t want to play here, can’t stay on the field, and were just not good. All should be red flags.

[Mackus]

People are obsessing over fully guaranteed, but it's not that different from the rest of the top QB deals that aren't fully guaranteed. Money isn't all guaranteed at signing, but a ton of it is and ensuing years become guaranteed a year prior to taking place. It's barely a difference, IMO. You're effed if you need to get out of either, just slightly more if it's fully guaranteed.

[bmore_ken]

People are obsessing over fully guaranteed, but it's not that different from the rest of the top QB deals that aren't fully guaranteed. Money isn't all guaranteed at signing, but a ton of it is and ensuing years become guaranteed a year prior to taking place. It's barely a difference, IMO. You're effed if you need to get out of either, just slightly more if it's fully guaranteed.

I literally said the exact same thing in this thread months ago. I mean Kyler Murray got $189M in guaranteed money. You can say that's not $230, but how much of a real difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

[mdrunning]

People are obsessing over fully guaranteed, but it's not that different from the rest of the top QB deals that aren't fully guaranteed. Money isn't all guaranteed at signing, but a ton of it is and ensuing years become guaranteed a year prior to taking place. It's barely a difference, IMO. You're effed if you need to get out of either, just slightly more if it's fully guaranteed.

If Derek Carr's contract were fully guaranteed, he wouldn't have been benched. There are no outs on fully guaranteed deals.

[bmore_ken]

If Derek Carr's contract were fully guaranteed, he wouldn't have been benched. There are no outs on fully guaranteed deals.

Call me crazy, but despite all the rumors I still don't think it's a fully guaranteed deal or bust with LJ.  I think the amount of guaranteed money is what held the process up this offseason. Not a fully guaranteed contract. Strictly my guess on it by the way. 

[Mackus]

If Derek Carr's contract were fully guaranteed, he wouldn't have been benched. There are no outs on fully guaranteed deals.

Right, and there are barely any outs on the other big deals.

Typically all the money that isn't guaranteed at signing eventually becomes guaranteed a year and a half prior to the year it's to be paid (so March of '23 the 2024 salary becomes guaranteed). So to cut a guy, you eat a full years of guaranteed money that was locked in the previous year. In a fully guaranteed case, it'd be two years (assuming we're talking the last two).

That's not a trivial difference, but it's not a major one either.

[mdrunning]

Right, and there are barely any outs on the other big deals.

Typically all the money that isn't guaranteed at signing eventually becomes guaranteed a year and a half prior to the year it's to be paid (so March of '23 the 2024 salary becomes guaranteed). So to cut a guy, you eat a full years of guaranteed money that was locked in the previous year. In a fully guaranteed case, it'd be two years (assuming we're talking the last two).

That's not a trivial difference, but it's not a major one either.

Yes, because there are different types of guarantees. Typically they include money guaranteed upfront (the signing bonus) and money which becomes fully guaranteed at a later date, as you stated.

 

A classic example is Patrick Mahomes' 12-year, $503 million extension with Kansas City. Staggering numbers, but numbers he'll never collect fully. Starting this year, for example, Mahomes can collect a maximum of $2.5 million per season if he is, (a, named MVP, and (b, leads the Chiefs to the Super Bowl for each of the next 10 years. (At least he doesn't actually have to win it.) 

 

Most importantly, Mahomes deal (and by the way, I'm not trying to sound pedantic; I know you understand how this works) essentially becomes a pay-as-you-go arrangement after 2024 since the dead cap money is largely off the books. To me, that's the most important part. It isn't how much you're paying a guy in any given season, but where and how far down the road are the escape hatches if the contract becomes too burdensome.

[BSLMikeRandall]

I literally said the exact same thing in this thread months ago. I mean Kyler Murray got $189M in guaranteed money. You can say that's not $230, but how much of a real difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

If he plays out almost the entirety of the contract he gets $189M guaranteed. He got $103M upfront, and will get an option bonus of $36M next year, but the rest of the guaranteed money is farther down the line. If he doesn’t make it that far, while costly, $139M is a lot less than $189M.

[hallas]

I literally said the exact same thing in this thread months ago. I mean Kyler Murray got $189M in guaranteed money. You can say that's not $230, but how much of a real difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

Murray only has 103 fully guaranteed. He has 189 guaranteed for injury only. The injury guarantees convert to full guarantees on a schedule over the next couple years.