5723 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

Look, you can't have it both ways. If you want to give EDC credit for all the picks while Ozzie was here, and claim they should be on his resume just as much as his picks post Ozzie, than the obvious implication is that Ozzie wasn't that important. I don't believe that to be the case, and have noticed a decline in quality personnel taken in the middle rounds (particularly OL) since Ozzie left.

Again, no one is saying this. Your implication stems from your own straw man.

 

The final decision maker gets the credit. But they arrive at those decisions based on the information provided by all the folks in football ops. You think DeCosta as Assistant GM for 7 years just brought Ozzie his coffee everyday? Picked up his dry cleaning, walked his dog? Deserves zero credit for anything player personnel related?

[Slidemaster]

Again, no one is saying this. Your implication stems from your own straw man.

The final decision maker gets the credit. But they arrive at those decisions based on the information provided by all the folks in football ops. You think DeCosta as Assistant GM for 7 years just brought Ozzie his coffee everyday? Picked up his dry cleaning, walked his dog? Deserves zero credit for anything player personnel related?

Now who is setting up the straw man? I didn't say that either. However, the picks speak for themselves. Without Ozzie in the GM role, DeCosta has not selected good offensive lineman. Draw your own conclusions as to why, but I'm not convinced that he is as good as Ozzie was in that department.

[Biggsy]

Now who is setting up the straw man? I didn't say that either. However, the picks speak for themselves. Without Ozzie in the GM role, DeCosta has not selected good offensive lineman. Draw your own conclusions as to why, but I'm not convinced that he is as good as Ozzie was in that department.

I've already addressed this in the other thread. But I'll say it again. The draft picks, whether good or bad, in this organization, can't be solely credited to the GM. Thats not how this front office has ever worked. There is a whole committee of individuals involved. Those committee members sort through hundreds of reports from scouts, view countless hours of college film and workouts. And together, with the GM, create a draft board that they follow, no matter what.

[Mike in STL]

Now who is setting up the straw man? I didn't say that either. However, the picks speak for themselves. Without Ozzie in the GM role, DeCosta has not selected good offensive lineman. Draw your own conclusions as to why, but I'm not convinced that he is as good as Ozzie was in that department.

By your rules then Ozzie has drafted 33 of them and DeCosta 6. Maybe let DeCosta throw a few more darts before deciding that.

But I’m not going to go 15 rounds with you on players performance, or discuss that it’s far too early to judge Cleveland, Linderbaum and Faalele. Because I think your analysis on player performance flat out sucks and you’re pretty irrational and close minded. DeCosta sucks, Lamar sucks, the team sucks. 2 weeks in the season is lost and nothing will change your mind. We got it.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Who do those scouts report to? Who hires and fires them? The idea that a GM can’t be criticized for drafts because he has a team around him is a very weak argument IMO. Just conceptually speaking, again, I’m not even being critical of the drafting, yet.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Who do those scouts report to? Who hires and fires them? The idea that a GM can’t be criticized for drafts because he has a team around him is a very weak argument IMO. Just conceptually speaking, again, I’m not even being critical of the drafting, yet.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.   It's recognized there are team decisions and a process. Success is shared as a team, but failures are held to the leader. 

FTR, I'm not saying DeCosta's drafts are failures. I don't feel that.  Just agreeing he's ultimately the one responsible. 

[Biggsy]

Who do those scouts report to? Who hires and fires them? The idea that a GM can’t be criticized for drafts because he has a team around him is a very weak argument IMO. Just conceptually speaking, again, I’m not even being critical of the drafting, yet.

How is that a weak argument? This team has never had one person making decisions on who to draft. It has always been a large committee of FO personnel creating a draft board. We have always been the gold standard for BPA because of that.

If a room full of 30 people are coming together to create a board, and that's what you draft off of, how do you blame one person for that? That'd be like blaming Lamar for the loss to the Dolphins. It's irrational and short-sighted.


How do you know it's not a player development issue, and not a drafting issue? You can only draft talent. It's up to coaches to develop those players.

We have been poached internally for over a decade from 31 other teams. Eventually that takes a toll. But sure, we can lay the blame on 1 person.

[Mackus]

The final credit and blame goes to the GM.  His staff supports them.

 

Who to blame for DeCosta's picks is DeCosta, end of conversation.

 

But the conversation about whether DeCosta knows what he's doing in terms of drafting OL (or anything else) has to include his personal contributions when he was in lesser but still heavily involved roles.  An argument that "he knew enough about drafting to help Ozzie decide to take Grubbs, Yanda, Stanley, Jensen, Oher, Brown, and others but then forgot it all as soon as he was in charge and we know that because he has made a few questionable Day 3 picks" is pretty silly argument.  Would only make sense if you think DeCosta disliked all those picks and Ozzie made them anyway.

 

Its entirely possible for a guy who is great at scouting and drafting to make a few years worth of mostly bad picks.  Especially if you're only looking at one position group that not a lot of capital has been spent on.  There are huge error bars with every pick.  Its not the scouting staff's fault if you get bit hard and a large portion of your guys fail over a short time.  That can happen, just like it can happen that a large portion of your guys exceed the expectation and are on the upper end of their potential.  Most of that comes down to the individual player.

[Slidemaster]

By your rules then Ozzie has drafted 33 of them and DeCosta 6. Maybe let DeCosta throw a few more darts before deciding that.

But I’m not going to go 15 rounds with you on players performance, or discuss that it’s far too early to judge Cleveland, Linderbaum and Faalele. Because I think your analysis on player performance flat out sucks and you’re pretty irrational and close minded. DeCosta sucks, Lamar sucks, the team sucks. 2 weeks in the season is lost and nothing will change your mind. We got it.

I like Linderbaum, but it would be hard to screw that pick up. Also not judging Faalele on 2 games. Also never said DeCosta sucks. Also never said Lamar sucks. For someone telling me how wrong I am, you are literally wrong on everything you're attributing me to me. Do you get tired of being wrong, or is it just natural for you?

Do me a favor - if you're going to tell me how stupid my views are, at least reference my actual views instead of making them up.

[Biggsy]

The final credit and blame goes to the GM. His staff supports them.

Who to blame for DeCosta's picks is DeCosta, end of conversation.

I disagree. That's as short-sighted as attributing a Superbowl win to just a QB.

[Mackus]

I disagree. That's as short-sighted as attributing a Superbowl win to just a QB.

No, it's not remotely similar. The QB isn't in charge of overseeing the rest of the players.

Everything gets attributed to the GM (or President if there is a football related President above them, but that's not the case here).

It's a hugely collaborative effort but the GM takes final responsibility for everything underneath. It's pretty basic organizational structuring. But it's very clear when talking draft picks. The GM approves every single one directly.

[You Play to Win the Game]

If a player throws a fit and begs his coach to challenge a play, and the coach does and the call stands or is confirmed, who deserves blame there?

[Biggsy]

I like Linderbaum, but it would be hard to screw that pick up. Also not judging Faalele on 2 games. Also never said DeCosta sucks. Also never said Lamar sucks. For someone telling me how wrong I am, you are literally wrong on everything you're attributing me to me. Do you get tired of being wrong, or is it just natural for you?

Do me a favor - if you're going to tell me how stupid my views are, at least reference my actual views instead of making them up.

I'm sure if someone took the time to go back, they could find posts where you strongly insinuated, or in a round about way said Decosta and Lamar suck. You may not have ever directly said it. But you are well known around here for your unrivaled pessimism, and your impulsive freak-outs. After a while it wears anyone down.

Ultimately, I think you just try to call a spade a spade, and you're not scared to hold anyone accountable. Which is a good quality. But sometimes when you shoot your shot, it's misdirected, or irrational. And you refuse to ever step back and ever change your prospective.

[Slidemaster]

I'm sure if someone took the time to go back, they could find posts where you strongly insinuated, or in a round about way said Decosta and Lamar suck. You may not have ever directly said it. But you are well known around here for your unrivaled pessimism, and your impulsive freak-outs. After a while it wears anyone down.

Ultimately, I think you just try to call a spade a spade, and you're not scared to hold anyone accountable. Which is a good quality. But sometimes when you shoot your shot, it's misdirected, or irrational. And you refuse to ever step back and ever change your prospective.

I can understand that perspective. It just feels like you aren't allowed to criticize any of the chosen ones in the organization at times without the same familiar voices making excuses for why they're wonderful. EDC had flaws like anyone else. Lamar does too. Recognizing that isn't pessimism - its reality.

I am pessimistic about the defense, and this team's heart on defense. I have no faith in either, at all. I'm happy to let them prove me wrong.

[bmore_ken]

Uh...no he didn't.

Of course he did.

[Biggsy]

I can understand that perspective. It just feels like you aren't allowed to criticize any of the chosen ones in the organization at times without the same familiar voices making excuses for why they're wonderful. EDC had flaws like anyone else. Lamar does too. Recognizing that isn't pessimism - its reality.

I am pessimistic about the defense, and this team's heart on defense. I have no faith in either, at all. I'm happy to let them prove me wrong.

I really agree about the defense having no heart. They have no leader. None of the vets want to step up. The younger guys haven't earned it.

I think EDC has flaws. I think he trusts his scouts TOO much. If we're talking running a draft room, give me Ozzie. But if we're talking a whole body of work as a GM, I actually like EDC a little more. He has always addressed our biggest needs in free agency, with minimal cap space to work with. And when he makes trades, it seems like he's almost always fleecing someone. He handled the Orlando Brown and Marquise Brown situations perfectly. He spun two guys who didn't want to be here into first round picks. Which is rare for a non-QB that doesn't want to be with his team anymore.

I have faith that the defense can turn things around. Humphrey and Peters will work their way back. Hamilton and JAD will learn and improve as the game slows down. Jones coming back will allow Pierce to rotate out a lot more, and stay fresh all game. Eventually Bowser will be back. I do feel like a consistent pass rush will remain an issue all season. Especially if Oweh continues to be non-existant there.

[Mackus]

If a player throws a fit and begs his coach to challenge a play, and the coach does and the call stands or is confirmed, who deserves blame there?

 

The coach. I also would hesitate to believe the player the next time the he insists that call was wrong on the field (or be more quick to believe him if he was right).

 

I think for DeCosta, its kind of the opposite scenario as the one you point out.  For years he was the player begging for a challenge flag and Ozzie would throw it and the call would be overturned at a very good rate so there was reason to think the player knew what he was talking about regarding calls being right or wrong.  Now DeCosta is the coach and he's the one throwing the flags.  

 

Other than Lindebaum, the highest pick DeCosta had used on a lineman is #94.  Success rate hasn't seemed great, but its 5 guys picked between 94-143.  Powers has gotten a bunch of starts, that can't be viewed as a bad pick.  Cleveland too early to say early in his 2nd year.  Phillips and Brederson were busts, Phillps as a 3rd rounder probably the biggest miss but even that isn't a lot of draft capital.  Faalale is a rookie so gonna take some years.

[weird-O]

How is that a weak argument? This team has never had one person making decisions on who to draft. It has always been a large committee of FO personnel creating a draft board. We have always been the gold standard for BPA because of that.

If a room full of 30 people are coming together to create a board, and that's what you draft off of, how do you blame one person for that? That'd be like blaming Lamar for the loss to the Dolphins. It's irrational and short-sighted.


How do you know it's not a player development issue, and not a drafting issue? You can only draft talent. It's up to coaches to develop those players.

We have been poached internally for over a decade from 31 other teams. Eventually that takes a toll. But sure, we can lay the blame on 1 person.

I was going to mention this, because I'm pretty sure Bisciotti actually mentioned this some time back. Good scouts get promoted, then need to be replaced. That's not always easy to do, because you're not the only GM trying to improve your scouting department

[hallas]

Again, no one is saying this. Your implication stems from your own straw man.

 

The final decision maker gets the credit. But they arrive at those decisions based on the information provided by all the folks in football ops. You think DeCosta as Assistant GM for 7 years just brought Ozzie his coffee everyday? Picked up his dry cleaning, walked his dog? Deserves zero credit for anything player personnel related?

 

The issue isn't that he shouldn't get some credit for drafts during his time as AGM.  The issue is that he shouldn't both get bonus credit for AGM. and also have blame for his poor drafts deflected because drafts are "decisions based on information provided by all the folks in football ops."  At the end of the day, as anything less than GM, he should get significantly less than 50% credit for those drafts, and as GM, he should get significantly more than 50% credit.  The buck stops with you when you're the GM.  When Ozzie had poor drafts (and he did, from time to time.  Breshad Perriman?) then those were primarily on Ozzie.

[RavensFanSec235]

Again, no one is saying this. Your implication stems from your own straw man.

 

The final decision maker gets the credit. But they arrive at those decisions based on the information provided by all the folks in football ops. You think DeCosta as Assistant GM for 7 years just brought Ozzie his coffee everyday? Picked up his dry cleaning, walked his dog? Deserves zero credit for anything player personnel related?

 

They are both still very much involved in the decision making. I blame them both quite frankly.