155 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Ive already been through this so I wont beat a dead horse but it drives me crazy the inconsistency. How does Ortiz get in 1st ballot when guys like Bagwell and Piazza didnt because of suspicion. There was more smoke with Ortiz than those two. I honestly dont even think he is 1st ballot regardless of the PED stuff. He was a freaking DH.who put up considerably less WAR and had a lower OPS+ than Edgar.

 

As someone who does like the distinction between 1st ballot and not 1st ballot guy, I agree.

 

Bagwell and Piazza are first ballot guys for me, Ortiz isn't.  I don't know how I'd handle that if I were a voter.  I don't think I'd not vote for someone who I think is worthy.  Maybe the HOF should raise the threshold required for a guy in their first year to 85% or 90%, then have 10 years after that?  Probably not a problem that needs fixing.

[BSLChrisStoner]

FanGraphs: Hall of Fame Voters Decide David Ortiz Is in a Class by Himself

 

CBS Sports: Baseball Hall of Fame results: David Ortiz voted in on first ballot; Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens fall short

https://www.cbssport...all-short/live/

[Old Man]

They want to know why MLB is losing fans.

[Slidemaster]

I don't think the PED stuff should exclude anybody, I'd vote for all these guys.

But, I think there is markedly less stink on Ortiz than there is on Bonds and Clemens. If your threshold for PED tolerance is very high like mine, then all should be in. If your threshold is very low (any) then all should be out. But I think someone reasonable could also have a threshold somewhere in the middle and have Ortiz pass it while the others fail.

I guess to put it another way, I can see not holding the anonymous testing trials against Ortiz (and any others on that list we don't know about) while holding positive tests leading to suspension once the system was fully implemented against guys like Manny and ARod. I'd put the level of knowledge we have about Bonds and Clemens' usage (and Sheffiled) on par with a failed test and suspension and more severe than being caught in the anonymous part and then having that not remain anonymous. Isn't it plausible that Ortiz' positive on that test would've been overturned on appeal and we'd never have known about it if it was part of the real testing process? We know certain initial positive results are overturned under the current system.

I fall in this category. Ortiz offends me less than Bonds or Clemens. There's something a little less official about anonymous tests that he allegedly failed, and there were so many banned and dirty substances floating around then that it isn't infeasible that he wasn't aware something he was taking was banned. That doesn't completely absolve him of course - you're responsible for what goes in your body - but it feels markedly less deceitful than the full doping regimens that Bonds and Clemens were on.

As for him being worthy on his hitting merits alone, I think he's someone who has, for lack of a better way to describe it, a HoF mystique surrounding him. I haven't looked into the stats, but I would be completely unsurprised if Edgar Martinez was the better hitter, but who never had the opportunity to shine in the spotlight, again and again. Big (dare I say, legendary), moments in baseball history can define a career, and Ortiz has had several.

[weird-O]

I would be completely unsurprised if Edgar Martinez was the better hitter, but who never had the opportunity to shine in the spotlight, again and again. Big (dare I say, legendary), moments in baseball history can define a career, and Ortiz has had several.

I was going to post this same sentiment. Playing for a high profile, big market team, with consistent post season opportunities, can make a lesser player seem better than he was. For Ortiz, he did shine in those moments. I'd be surprised if that wasn't the factor that influenced less certain voters to say, "yes, he's on my ballot" 

 

I found this article

[Mark Carver]

Just sayin'....

 

[Mike B]

Just sayin'....

 

He never did pay for that phone.

 

I think the Orioles brought that phone out when they "honored" him in his last trip to Camden Yards.

[SBTarheel]

He never did pay for that phone.

 

I think the Orioles brought that phone out when they "honored" him in hisd last trip to Camden Yards.

Love it, that's hysterical. People need to enjoy things like that more in my opinion. I'm sure Papi had a good laugh over that. 

[CantonJester]

I fall in this category. Ortiz offends me less than Bonds or Clemens. There's something a little less official about anonymous tests that he allegedly failed, and there were so many banned and dirty substances floating around then that it isn't infeasible that he wasn't aware something he was taking was banned. That doesn't completely absolve him of course - you're responsible for what goes in your body - but it feels markedly less deceitful than the full doping regimens that Bonds and Clemens were on.

As for him being worthy on his hitting merits alone, I think he's someone who has, for lack of a better way to describe it, a HoF mystique surrounding him. I haven't looked into the stats, but I would be completely unsurprised if Edgar Martinez was the better hitter, but who never had the opportunity to shine in the spotlight, again and again. Big (dare I say, legendary), moments in baseball history can define a career, and Ortiz has had several.

 

 

I think the chances Ortiz wasn’t on a similar regimen to be unrealistic. But what’s done is done, and Selig had his scapegoats for the PED mess. 

[ivanbalt]

They want to know why MLB is losing fans.

The bitter, old baseball writers like to pretend they're protecting the game even though they went along for the steroid era ride.

[russsnyder]

PEDs aren't acceptable for one of the greatest outfielders and one of the greatest pitchers, but they are for a DH who couldn't even play first base. Terrible.

The guy also could have been timed with a sundial while " running out" a routine ground ball. What a complete player Ortiz was.

[russsnyder]

I don't think the PED stuff should exclude anybody, I'd vote for all these guys.

But, I think there is markedly less stink on Ortiz than there is on Bonds and Clemens. If your threshold for PED tolerance is very high like mine, then all should be in. If your threshold is very low (any) then all should be out. But I think someone reasonable could also have a threshold somewhere in the middle and have Ortiz pass it while the others fail.

I guess to put it another way, I can see not holding the anonymous testing trials against Ortiz (and any others on that list we don't know about) while holding positive tests leading to suspension once the system was fully implemented against guys like Manny and ARod. I'd put the level of knowledge we have about Bonds and Clemens' usage (and Sheffiled) on par with a failed test and suspension and more severe than being caught in the anonymous part and then having that not remain anonymous. Isn't it plausible that Ortiz' positive on that test would've been overturned on appeal and we'd never have known about it if it was part of the real testing process? We know certain initial positive results are overturned under the current system.

Like yourself,my tolerance to PED use is very high. ( Mainly because MLB turned a blind eye until Barry Bonds made a mockery of the single season HR record.)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the only PED tezt that Arod failed was the same one that Ortiz failed in 2003.

[russsnyder]

He put up less WAR and a lower OPS+ than Dick Allen who cant get in through the damn vet committee!!! This stuff legit tilts me so hard. Not sure why but it does.

Dick Allen should be in.

[Mike B]

Dick Allen should be in.

The writers for the most part hated Dick Allen.  He was a heck of a hitter in an era, where pitching was king, but he did not cooperate with the writers, and they got even.

[russsnyder]

I think the chances Ortiz wasn’t on a similar regimen to be unrealistic. But what’s done is done, and Selig had his scapegoats for the PED mess.

It is unrealistic.

These multi millionaires had access to the best PEDs and masking agents money could buy. To quantify eligibility on one's " regimen" is laughable.

[russsnyder]

The writers for the most part hated Dick Allen. He was a heck of a hitter in an era, where pitching was king, but he did not cooperate with the writers, and they got even.

The writers are A-holes.

Allen doesn't get in, but an admitted cheater like Gaylord Perry gets in?

Oh that's right. The Indians beat writer wrote " Me and the Spitter" for Perry.

I bet Perry boozed it up with a bunch of sportswriters during his career.

[russsnyder]

The bitter, old baseball writers like to pretend they're protecting the game even though they went along for the steroid era ride.

Yeah.

The writers and Selig got real sanctimonious after 2001

Not so much before that.

[Mike B]

The writers are A-holes.

Allen doesn't get in, but an admitted cheater like Gaylord Perry gets in?

Oh that's right. The Indians beat writer wrote " Me and the Spitter" for Perry.

I bet Perry boozed it up with a bunch of sportswriters during his career.

Agree 100%.  

The writers in those days spent a lot of time with players on the road.  They took care of those who took care of them.  

I once heard Rex Barney say if Richie had his brother's(Hank Allen) personality he would be in Cooperstown.  

[russsnyder]

Agree 100%.
The writers in those days spent a lot of time with players on the road. They took care of those who took care of them.
I once heard Rex Barney say if Richie had his brother's(Hank Allen) personality he would be in Cooperstown.

I read a biography that Bill James wrote on Richie Allen about thirty years ago. His theory on Dick Allen is that he ost likely suffered from some type of social anxiety disorder. He really was uncomfortable with speaking to relative strangers. That guy was one of the most dangerous hitters I ever saw. He should have been in the Hall years ago.

[Mike B]

I read a biography that Bill James wrote on Richie Allen about thirty years ago. His theory on Dick Allen is that he ost likely suffered from some type of social anxiety disorder. He really was uncomfortable with speaking to relative strangers. That guy was one of the most dangerous hitters I ever saw. He should have been in the Hall years ago.

I think I read the same book.  I actually met Hank Allen some years back at Timonium Race Track, where he worked as a trainer.  He was the complete opposite.