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2022 HOF Ballot


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#141 russsnyder

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Posted 26 January 2022 - 04:23 PM

I think I read the same book. I actually met Hank Allen some years back at Timonium Race Track, where he worked as a trainer. He was the complete opposite.


I forgot that Hank Allen was a trainer.
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#142 Slidemaster

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 01:42 AM

It is unrealistic.

These multi millionaires had access to the best PEDs and masking agents money could buy. To quantify eligibility on one's " regimen" is laughable.

You don't think we'd have heard about it?

We heard about complex doping regimens for several high profile guys. Other guys just got caught because they were stupid about it. I think most of that stuff gets revealed sooner or later, particularly with how hard Balco was investigated.

I just don't think it's likely that every steroid user had (has?) a team of sports scientists running them through a complex cheating regimen like they're Ivan Drago in his Rocky 4 montage..

Doesn't mean Ortiz didn't cheat, and frankly I'm not sure he should be in, but I do think there's a difference between a guy trying to shoot himself in the butt cheek in a stall, and a guy so flagrantly invested in cheating that he hires a team of crooked sports scientists to help him.

#143 russsnyder

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 06:00 AM

You don't think we'd have heard about it?

We heard about complex doping regimens for several high profile guys. Other guys just got caught because they were stupid about it. I think most of that stuff gets revealed sooner or later, particularly with how hard Balco was investigated.

I just don't think it's likely that every steroid user had (has?) a team of sports scientists running them through a complex cheating regimen like they're Ivan Drago in his Rocky 4 montage..

Doesn't mean Ortiz didn't cheat, and frankly I'm not sure he should be in, but I do think there's a difference between a guy trying to shoot himself in the butt cheek in a stall, and a guy so flagrantly invested in cheating that he hires a team of crooked sports scientists to help him.

I don't think there's a difference.

In each case you are breaking the rules.

The fundamental problem with all of this is that MLB encouraged PED use for years.

Bud Selig enabled all of this and he is somehow in the HOF. But Bonds and Clemens are out? It's a big joke and baseball and the HOF deserve to be pissed on as a result.
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#144 Slidemaster

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 09:25 AM

I don't think there's a difference.

In each case you are breaking the rules.

The fundamental problem with all of this is that MLB encouraged PED use for years.

Bud Selig enabled all of this and he is somehow in the HOF. But Bonds and Clemens are out? It's a big joke and baseball and the HOF deserve to be pissed on as a result.

I agree with that for the most part. However, I think saying "breaking the rules is breaking the rules" is a little too black and white.

Serial shoplifting and leading a team to rob banks aren't the same crime, and they wouldn't receive the same sentence. I can get on board with all PED users being banned from the hall, but Selig is as bad or worse than any of them to me. With that said, if the writers are not going to take that approach, I think it's a little too simplistic to try to evaluate every degree of rulebreaking as being the same.

#145 russsnyder

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 10:40 AM

I agree with that for the most part. However, I think saying "breaking the rules is breaking the rules" is a little too black and white.

Serial shoplifting and leading a team to rob banks aren't the same crime, and they wouldn't receive the same sentence. I can get on board with all PED users being banned from the hall, but Selig is as bad or worse than any of them to me. With that said, if the writers are not going to take that approach, I think it's a little too simplistic to try to evaluate every degree of rulebreaking as being the same.


I respect your view.

However, I think it's a stretch to compare the level of PED use by players with misdemeanors and felonies on the criminal level. Perhaps it's too simplistic from your standpoint. However, the major difference between the two examples you present is the money that the player has or is willing to shell out. The intent is the same. As an aside, I'm not much for self medicating. But if I was going to take PEDs, it would be under some type of " professional" supervision.

Also, baseball itself has long been a place where rules have been skirted or ignored for decades. (Corked bats, doctored baseballs, sophisticated sign stealing, etc.) In fact, one could certainly make a case that the use of PEDs amongst players was encouraged by management. I don't think keeping Clemens or Bonds out of the HOF accomplishes anything except making the writers feel morally superior to others.
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#146 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:00 AM

I read a biography that Bill James wrote on Richie Allen about thirty years ago. His theory on Dick Allen is that he ost likely suffered from some type of social anxiety disorder. He really was uncomfortable with speaking to relative strangers. That guy was one of the most dangerous hitters I ever saw. He should have been in the Hall years ago.

 

Bill James never wrote a biography of Dick Allen.  Maybe you're thinking of the Historical Baseball Abstract, where James wrote a few paragraphs about hundreds of players, Allen included.  Anyway, in that book, James wrote something like Dick Allen did more to keep his teams from winning than anyone else in the history of baseball.  So there's that to consider.



#147 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:08 AM

Although James also wrote this in 2010 (after the Baseball Abstract):

 

Heading into the 1964 season, major league baseball had had only one rookie in twenty years who had had 200 hits, that being Harvey Kuenn in 1953, who had 209 hits but no power.   In 1964 both Dick Allen and Tony Oliva had 200 hits as rookies, and both did so with 80 extra base hits—about 40 doubles, about 30 homers.

 

Their rookie seasons were very comparable, but, interpreting their batting stats by the standards we understood at that time, we thought Oliva was a little bit better.   The key stats then were the triple crown numbers (Homers, RBI, Batting Average).   Oliva held narrow edges in all three—32 homers to 29, 94 RBI to 91, .323 average to .318.

 

We now realize that in fact Allen’s rookie season was substantially better:

            1)  Oliva made 476 outs.   Allen made 452.

            2)  Allen walked almost twice as much, 67 times to 34.

            3)  There were 1 to 2% more runs scored in the American League.

            4)  Oliva played in a part with a park factor of 104; Allen, in a park with a park factor of 96.

 

Considering all of those things, we have Oliva with an individual won-lost contribution of 26-6, an MVP-candidate record, but Dick Allen with a record of 30-3.

 

For 30 years I have argued against Dick Allen being considered as a Hall of Famer, and, one last time, let me try to explain why.   First, I think that the record documents that Dick Allen was almost universally considered by sportswriters, while he was active, to be not a Hall of Fame player.    Second, I think that a fair and honest reading of the many, many incidents and controversies of his career will show clearly that Allen himself was the source of almost all the trouble that followed him.   Third, I have argued that these incidents had a negative impact on the performance of his teams, and that that negative impact substantially offset the positive impact of his on-field performance.

 

I have argued these things for many years, I believe, in an effort to promote understanding, in this way:  That I knew that a time would come when people would look at Dick Allen’s playing record, and demand to know why he was not in the Hall of Fame.   I was trying to say “There is a reason there, if you take the trouble to look.   If you take the time and make the effort to go back and re-construct the full record of his career, you will see that his exclusion was not arbitrary or capricious, but was a natural consequence of Dick Allen’s own choices and his own actions.” 

 

OK, that’s the argument that I have made for 30 years, and let us set aside the issue of whether it was true or whether it was false.  The time has come, I think, to put the past away, and to elect Dick Allen to the Hall of Fame.

 

Look, 35 years ago I argued that “a time will come in the future when Dick Allen will be a strong candidate for the Hall of Fame.”   At first people thought I was goofy for even suggesting such a thing, but I knew that, in the exact same way that bones endure long after the flesh rots, statistics endure long after the memories of a player have rotted into nothing.    That time has come.   Almost no one really remembers most of the dozens or hundreds of Dick Allen controversies over the years 1962 to 1980 (and now that I think about it, I am certain that it was in fact hundreds.)   These incidents can be divided into those which have been forgotten by 95% of the public, and those which have been forgotten by 99% of the public.  The 99% stack is much taller.

 

These.  ..”controversies” is too strong a word.   These awkward moments could be divided, as well, into those for which Allen was responsible, and those for which he was not.   And those for which he was responsible could be divided into those which actually make some negative statement about Allen’s character, and those which were just. . .different.   Writing “Boo” in the dirt to return the Boos of the Philadelphia fans. ..what really was wrong with that?

 

And then again, we could divide those incidents for which Allen was responsible and which reflect not the best image of him into some small number which are truly unfortunate, and a much larger number which are merely human.   Holding up the team bus?   The truth is, if I was an athlete, I’d wind up holding up the team bus sometimes, I know I would.   It’s just kind of the way I am.    Some of us don’t fit too well into organized group activities—Dick Allen didn’t, and I don’t, so sue me.    If I was on a sports team and I had to conform my conduct to the expectations of my teammates, I would irritate the living hell out of my coaches and teammates, and there is nothing I could do about this; it’s just the way I am.  Allen in many ways did better than I would.

 

The question, then, is “How do we feel about the fact that all of these things have been forgotten?”   And I have to say:  I’m OK with it.   Let’s forget them, let’s bury them, let’s move on.   We’ve argued about them long enough.   Heal the wounds?  The wounds have all healed long ago.   All that is left now is the anger that can be re-generated without limit from the recountings of past wrongs.   We don’t carry those things forward forever; wise people don’t.   Normal people don’t.   At some point you throw them away like worn-out luggage.    The statute of limitation has lapsed on holding up the team bus.   The time has come to set aside Dick Allen’s failings or the allegations of them, recognize the excellence of his performance on the field, and put the man in the Hall of Fame.


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#148 Mike B

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:23 AM

I forgot that Hank Allen was a trainer.

Yep, he spent a lot of time at the Maryland race tracks.  I met him at Timonium, when he was working for one of my fathers customers, training horses.  He was very friendly and an interesting guy to talk to.


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#149 Mike B

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:29 AM

Bill James never wrote a biography of Dick Allen.  Maybe you're thinking of the Historical Baseball Abstract, where James wrote a few paragraphs about hundreds of players, Allen included.  Anyway, in that book, James wrote something like Dick Allen did more to keep his teams from winning than anyone else in the history of baseball.  So there's that to consider.

There are a number of books out there about Dick (Richie) allen.  I think the one I remember reading was Dick Allen, The Life and Time of a baseball Immortal.  It was written by William Kashatus.


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#150 Old Man

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 11:42 AM

Good reading on Allen:

 

https://www.thescore...lb/news/2066280


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#151 SBTarheel

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 12:34 PM

I forgot that Hank Allen was a trainer.

His horse Northern Wolf set the pace in both the Legendary Sunday Silence/Easy Goer Derby and Preakness back in 1989, and held the 6 Furlong track record at Pimlico for quite some time.


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#152 russsnyder

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 02:43 PM

Bill James never wrote a biography of Dick Allen. Maybe you're thinking of the Historical Baseball Abstract, where James wrote a few paragraphs about hundreds of players, Allen included. Anyway, in that book, James wrote something like Dick Allen did more to keep his teams from winning than anyone else in the history of baseball. So there's that to consider.

It was in the back of his book.

Those write ups were the best part of that book IMO.

Did Allen do more to keep the Phillies from winning than Gene Mauch?

LOL
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#153 Mike B

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 02:44 PM

His horse Northern Wolf set the pace in both the Legendary Sunday Silence/Easy Goer Derby and Preakness back in 1989, and held the 6 Furlong track record at Pimlico for quite some time.

I think Hank Allen was the first black trainer to saddle a horse in the Kentucky Derby.  I am pretty sure that horse was Northern Wolf.

He went back to baseball as a scout after his horse racing days were done.


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#154 russsnyder

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 02:45 PM

His horse Northern Wolf set the pace in both the Legendary Sunday Silence/Easy Goer Derby and Preakness back in 1989, and held the 6 Furlong track record at Pimlico for quite some time.

That was his horse?

I believe you.

I was on the rail the day of the Preakness.

( Grandstand Side.)

As drunk as I was, those two hooking up in the stretch was the best piece of racing I ever saw.
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#155 SBTarheel

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 03:13 PM

That was his horse?

I believe you.

I was on the rail the day of the Preakness.

( Grandstand Side.)

As drunk as I was, those two hooking up in the stretch was the best piece of racing I ever saw.

100% he was the trainer, I knew one of the co owners at the time. He ended up being a great speed horse, never really belonged running long, but every time anyone watches the 1989 Triple Crown races on YouTube, Northern Wolf is front and center!! 


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#156 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 08:53 AM

FanGraphs: A Candidate-by-Candidate Look at the 2022 Hall of Fame Election Results






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