122 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Then publically disclose your voting record and let people comb over every person you did vote for that has made similar type stupid, or uneducated, or racist, or sexist comments. Be consistent or youre a hypocrite.

 

Yeah ok, I'm fine with that.  There aren't a lot of people who've made publicly racist statements like Curt has.  If you have some specific examples I'll let you know my thoughts on them.  We can't rescind votes from guys who got in in the past, but I'll address those as they come up in a "what I would have done" fashion.

 

Also I think guys who are clear no-doubt-about-it guys will get a little more leeway than somewhat more debatable guys like Schilling.  

 

I also think dumb things said and done while playing should have more weight than things said and done after retirement.  Most (maybe all that I've seen) or Schilling's dumb stuff has been since he retired.  If he came out and said some Donald Sterling stuff, I would then not vote for him, but so far based on what he's said and done after he quit, I'd still be able to hold my nose and vote for him.

[BSLChrisStoner]

All voting should be between the lines. 

But if you have guys teetering on the edge of consideration, I could certainly see character playing a part. 

 

Of course than it's subjective on definitions of character. 

[BSLRoseKatz]

Btw not trying to pick on you Jordan but am curious. Would you already eliminate Josh Hader from HOF contention for the comments he made as a teen?

Probably not, I think there's a clear gap in what you can expect in terms of maturity from a high schooler on Twitter who assumed no one outside of his HS would ever see those tweets and an adult who knows he has a large platform on Twitter as a well-known retired baseball player 

[Mackus]

All voting should be between the lines. 

 

I think this is a perfectly acceptable guideline to have, but it's not the guidelines from the HoF.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im not saying character plays no part but I will say things like crimes commited and the severity of them are a huge chunk of that. Not as much words spoken or typed.

[BSLRoseKatz]

Probably not, I think there's a clear gap in what you can expect in terms of maturity from a high schooler on Twitter who assumed no one outside of his HS would ever see those tweets and an adult who knows he has a large platform on Twitter as a well-known retired baseball player 

 

Also Hader said he supported the Bucks strike from earlier this year so I think that shows he actually learnt from what happened and didn't just apologize because it was a PR nightmare 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Posnanski just wrote about Schilling's HOF case.  Here was his conclusion:

 

Sure, Schilling and his fans will say it’s about his conservative politics, but that’s a steaming crock of nonsense. I assume just about every player I’ve ever voted for the Hall of Fame is conservative politically. Heck, Mariano Rivera is probably the most prominent athlete who publicly and loudly supports Donald Trump — a position I’m sure Schilling envies — and Rivera is the only player in baseball history elected unanimously.

 

I can assure you that the vast majority of Hall of Famers are conservative. Get these guys together and, believe me, it looks and sounds an awful lot like a diner near you where old pals get together weekly to sit around eating eggs and bacon and talk about how great the Eisenhower days were.

 

And that’s fine. Who cares about their politics?

 

No, of course, it isn’t Schilling’s politics. It’s his nastiness. It’s his intolerance. It’s his compulsion to troll. Curt Schilling pushes anger and fear and hatred. Every day he divides, every day he offends … and all the while, he makes sure to note that those he offends deserve it, and bleep ’em if they can’t take a joke, and if they happen to have a Hall of Fame vote they should give it to him anyway because he was a damn good pitcher, particularly in the big games. I’ve done that for eight years. He was a damn good pitcher, particularly in the big games. I still rank him as one of the 100 greatest players in baseball history. But I’m not voting for him. I suspect he will get into the Hall of Fame anyway, and that’s fine. He doesn’t need my vote. He shows every day he doesn’t want my vote.

 

Curt Schilling — The Outsiders, No. 30 – The Athletic

[mweb08]

I think this is a perfectly acceptable guideline to have, but it's not the guidelines from the HoF.

There is however, ample precedent for ignoring character.

We have certainly seen an attempt to push back on that over the past 15 or so years by people that don't want (more) steroid users in the Hall. Many of those same people ignored character though until they started seeing cherished records crumble.

[mweb08]

Posnanski just wrote about Schilling's HOF case. Here was his conclusion:


Curt Schilling — The Outsiders, No. 30 – The Athletic

I don't agree with his conclusion, but certainly agree regarding this being beyond politics.

[mweb08]

Who I would vote for:

 

Bonds

Clemens

Manny

Schilling

Rolen

Wagner

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Posnanski just wrote about Schilling's HOF case. Here was his conclusion:


Curt Schilling — The Outsiders, No. 30 – The Athletic

You dont have to follow Schilling on twitter. Social media for the most part is a cesspool IMO. If a blurb comes up on ESPN front page with something "bad" he or anyone else did I'll take notice and weigh it. Ponanski will and has undoubtedly voted for adulterers, criminals, etc. What is your criteria for character and morality Mr Ponanski.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Rolen
Clemens
Bonds
Schilling
Wagner


Wouldn't quite turn my vote in yet as Im doing more research on Helton and A Jones.

[Mackus]

Im mostly just being contrarian to be contrarian. I haven't looked closely enough at Helton or his splits.

 

1050 at Coors, 850 on the road.

 

Big splits, but he still had good numbers everywhere, just not amazing numbers.  I still vote for him.

 

One thing to keep in mind that the entire league has a home/road split.  It's obviously not that drastic as it is for guys playing for the Rockies, but 20-40 OPS points difference is typical for the entire league home versus road.  The Rockies as a team have a much larger home/road split, 175-200 OPS points, so Helton's splits are pretty typical for a Rockies player.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im voting for A Jones. Best defensive CF All time by defensive WAR. 111 OPS+. Not great but solid. His WAR 7 is 9th for CF. Just didnt have the longevity to add a little more WAR or get to 500 HRs. Being the best defensive player all time at an up the middle position, in particular CF, carries a lot of weight with me. Again, a solid offensive player too.

[mweb08]

A 133 OPS+ is not that amazing for a 1st baseman, especially without a huge amount of plate appearance like an Eddie or Raffy have. Granted, it is an OPS that is strongly driven by a great OBP so that makes his case a lot stronger IMO.

 

However, his career wRC+ is 165th, which for a 1st baseman without great longevity, is a little lacking when we're talking about the HOF, imo. That's below Fred McGriff, Will Clark, and Carlos Delgado. Well below Jason Giambi and Sheffield. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

A 133 OPS+ is not that amazing for a 1st baseman, especially without a huge amount of plate appearance like an Eddie or Raffy have. Granted, it is an OPS that is strongly driven by a great OBP so that makes his case a lot stronger IMO.

However, his career wRC+ is 165th, which for a 1st baseman without great longevity, is a little lacking when we're talking about the HOF, imo. That's below Fred McGriff, Will Clark, and Carlos Delgado. Well below Jason Giambi and Sheffield.

Was just about to get to Heltons wRC+ which is not kind to him or Coors. Besides some of the guys you mentioned his wRC+ trails Jack Clark, Boog Powell, and John Kruk.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Heltons fWar trails Olerud, Keith Hernandez,Darrell Evans. He's a no for me. At least at this point.


Btw fangraphs is a little kinder to AJones than baseball reference . Has his fWAR at 67 compared to 62 rWAR.

[mweb08]

Who I would vote for:

 

Bonds

Clemens

Manny

Schilling

Rolen

Wagner

 

Jones and Sheffield are super close for me. 

 

My issue with Jones is of course his lack of longevity because it's really poor for HOF standards.

 

With Sheff, it mostly comes down to his poor defense. I have written this before, but I have a hard time believing his defense was quite as bad as rWAR and fWAR have it, so I certainly see a decent case for him as well because the bat was definitely good enough.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yeah ok, I'm fine with that. There aren't a lot of people who've made publicly racist statements like Curt has. If you have some specific examples I'll let you know my thoughts on them. We can't rescind votes from guys who got in in the past, but I'll address those as they come up in a "what I would have done" fashion.

Also I think guys who are clear no-doubt-about-it guys will get a little more leeway than somewhat more debatable guys like Schilling.

I also think dumb things said and done while playing should have more weight than things said and done after retirement. Most (maybe all that I've seen) or Schilling's dumb stuff has been since he retired. If he came out and said some Donald Sterling stuff, I would then not vote for him, but so far based on what he's said and done after he quit, I'd still be able to hold my nose and vote for him.

Know you're a proponent of harsher punishments for DUI and DWIs. Obviously numerous guys fall into this category, but in particular your thoughts on Donovan McNabb who's a potential HOFer who has twice served time for DUIs.

[Old Man]

I think this is a perfectly acceptable guideline to have, but it's not the guidelines from the HoF.

doesnt matter too much about guidelines, the voting reporters have their strongly held opinions and beliefs.