122 replies to this topic

[Mike B]

I feel like Manny should be treated differently from other PED guys given he actually got suspended but that might be my hill to die on

 

Also I think Bobby Abreu has a really good case, higher career OBP than Tony Gwynn and a .303/.416/.513 slash in his prime as a Phillie is pretty strong

Interesting, Abreu, never felt like a Hof player when I watched his career.  He has the numbers though, but I still lean to the Hall of very good.

I am a pain in the ass when it comes to guys taking short cuts, so I say no on Bonds, Clemens. Manny etc.  I think they are all HOF guys before they went steroids though.

I don't think Vizquel is a HOF guy, but that is just me.  To be honest I would have never voted for Ozzie Smith.

When I saw your vote for Helton, my orginal thought was no, but I went and checked his stats and my second thought was I don't know what I am talking about.

Colorado certainly helped him but a 414 OBP and a 953 OPS, deserves the Hall when combined with averaging over 100 RBI and 27 HR's per season.

[Old Man]

Schilling is an ass off the field, but his on field play, he clearly deserves in the HOF.
 

[Mackus]

They claim because he never won a Cy Young that he isnt a HOF caliber pitcher.

 

I've never heard anyone with a serious opinion make this argument.

[Mackus]

I think you gotta either all or none for Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Sosa, and Ramirez. All are more than deserving from their play. I'd vote for them, even though I do love it that Clemens isn't in. The others (less so for Bonds) I have little or no animosity for and think they're getting a bit of a raw deal as the PED scapegoats.

Helton, Wagner, Schilling I'm voting for.

A. Jones and Rolen I think I also vote for as my final two. Abreu is just behind those guys so falls outside my top-10. I think in that tier with Jones and Rolen as being deserving. It's a bit asinine, but I like the distinction between "first ballot" and not. I'd exclude these type guys on their first year of eligibility (I realize this isn't the first year for any), but vote for them in subsequent years.

[BSLRoseKatz]

Feel like once Larry Walker got in it should be acceptable to put other Rockies in the hall. Lots of people have gotten to play 81 games in Coors without producing Helton's career numbers. 

[Old Man]

I've never heard anyone with a serious opinion make this argument.

It was also said of Mike Mussina that he didnt deserve to be in the HOF, because he never won a Cy Young.

 

Jason Stark alluded to this in his article: 

 

http://www.espn.com/...on/1456396.html

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Feel like once Larry Walker got in it should be acceptable to put other Rockies in the hall. Lots of people have gotten to play 81 games in Coors without producing Helton's career numbers.

Not for 17 years.

[BSLRoseKatz]

Not for 17 years.

So 10 is fine but 17 isn't? Feels pretty nitpicky unless you were also opposed to Walker. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Good discussion on Helton... 

https://www.cooperst...of-fame-debate/

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think you gotta either all or none for Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Sosa, and Ramirez. All are more than deserving from their play. I'd vote for them, even though I do love it that Clemens isn't in. The others (less so for Bonds) I have little or no animosity for and think they're getting a bit of a raw deal as the PED scapegoats.

Helton, Wagner, Schilling I'm voting for.

A. Jones and Rolen I think I also vote for as my final two. Abreu is just behind those guys so falls outside my top-10. I think in that tier with Jones and Rolen as being deserving. It's a bit asinine, but I like the distinction between "first ballot" and not. I'd exclude these type guys on their first year of eligibility (I realize this isn't the first year for any), but vote for them in subsequent years.

I disagree with the all or none take on the PED guys. Clemens and Bonds are in another stratosphere. Ramirez is next tier down. Sheffield a tier after that. Sosa a case can be made he doesn't deserve to be in on merit.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Let me put it this way. Im willing to vote Bonds and Clemens in now. Im not willing to vote any other PED guy from that era in before McGwire just because they are still on the ballot. McGwire is in the Manny tier. An offensive machine. When the vets vote him in it opens up the door for the others

[TwentyThirtyFive]

So 10 is fine but 17 isn't? Feels pretty nitpicky unless you were also opposed to Walker.

Im mostly just being contrarian to be contrarian. I haven't looked closely enough at Helton or his splits.

[Mackus]

Jason Stark alluded to this in his article: 

 

http://www.espn.com/...on/1456396.html

 

This article doesn't suggest he not get in because he hasn't won a Cy Young.  He does wonder if any voters will think that, but doesn't suggest any actually will.  So I still think that "he can't get in because he never won a Cy Young" is an argument I've never heard from anyone with a serious opinion.  Jayson Stark has a serious opinion, but he did not make that argument.  If you can find someone who votes or who takes this serious that thinks that, I'd be interested in seeing it.  That person would have terrible and unpopular opinion, but would at least show that that opinion exists amongst whatever small portion of real baseball people.

 

Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, Jim Bunning, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Bert Blyleven, Juan Marichal, and NOLAN EFFING RYAN all got in without winning a Cy Young award.

 

So it's a well established precedent that a pitcher need not have won a Cy Young Award to merit Hall of Fame induction.  Mussina was far from the first.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I feel like Manny should be treated differently from other PED guys given he actually got suspended but that might be my hill to die on

Also I think Bobby Abreu has a really good case, higher career OBP than Tony Gwynn and a .303/.416/.513 slash in his prime as a Phillie is pretty strong

I am curious why you wouldn't vote for Schilling.

[Old Man]

This article doesn't suggest he not get in because he hasn't won a Cy Young.  He does wonder if any voters will think that, but doesn't suggest any actually will.  So I still think that "he can't get in because he never won a Cy Young" is an argument I've never heard from anyone with a serious opinion.  Jayson Stark has a serious opinion, but he did not make that argument.  If you can find someone who votes or who takes this serious that thinks that, I'd be interested in seeing it.  That person would have terrible and unpopular opinion, but would at least show that that opinion exists amongst whatever small portion of real baseball people.

 

Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, Jim Bunning, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Bert Blyleven, Juan Marichal, and NOLAN EFFING RYAN all got in without winning a Cy Young award.

 

So it's a well established precedent that a pitcher need not have won a Cy Young Award to merit Hall of Fame induction.  Mussina was far from the first.

Jason alluded to the fact that some make that arugument.

 

Its not that well established, that it took several rounds for Mussina to merit HOF induction.

Mussina even mentioned it in his HOF induction speech:

“I was never fortunate enough to win a Cy Young Award or to be a World Series champion,” Mussina said during his 12-minute speech in front of an estimated crowd of 55,000 at the Clark Sports Center. “I didn’t win 300 games or strike out 3,000 batters. 

I do not disagree with you, IMO, lack of 300 wins or Cy Young, doesn't change how well you pitched. Career War is a very good indicator of how worthy you was.

 

But, baseball writers can be a complete bunch of hypercritical idiots. Look at some of the first rounders that went in, but not unanimously, like they didn't deserve that high level of acknowledgement.

[BSLRoseKatz]

I am curious why you wouldn't vote for Schilling.

https://twitter.com/...774337248854016

[Mackus]

Jason alluded to the fact that some make that arugument.

 

No, he did not say that some feel that way.

 

Until I see one actual person who has actually made that argument, I'm sticking with my belief that nobody who actually has a meaningful opinion on this (including baseball HoF voters) think that a Cy Young Award is a mandatory requirement for enshrinement.  Probably some are out there, there are lots of bad opinions in the world, but I've never seen that particular bad opinion expressed by anyone.  Somebody saying that "others think this way" doesn't count.  

 

Mariano Rivera got in unanimously and he never won one.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

https://twitter.com/...774337248854016

What I suspected. Thats a complete BS reason. If I find out Schilling truly believes in lynching people I reserve the right to take back my accusation of BS but come the hell on.

[BSLRoseKatz]

What I suspected. Thats a complete BS reason. If I find out Schilling truly believes in lynching people I reserve the right to take back my accusation of BS but come the hell on.

Not posting about lynching on Twitter is a pretty reasonable criteria imo, everyone else on the ballot passes that test besides Curt 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Not posting about lynching on Twitter is a pretty reasonable criteria imo, everyone else on the ballot passes that test besides Curt

Lol. But you'll vote for a serial wife beater. Someone commiting real crimes. Whos no where near as worthy as Schilling on merit BTW. Come on dude. Be better.