MVP
Posted 17 December 2020 - 08:15 AM
Know you're a proponent of harsher punishments for DUI and DWIs. Obviously numerous guys fall into this category, but in particular your thoughts on Donovan McNabb who's a potential HOFer who has twice served time for DUIs.
How is McNabb HOF worthy?
There was a lot of talk out of DC about how they had to dummy down the playbook and McNabb was still having issues.
Some of his ex-teammates from the Eagles, also dont rank him too high personally among the other QBs.
HOF
Posted 17 December 2020 - 09:24 AM
Know you're a proponent of harsher punishments for DUI and DWIs. Obviously numerous guys fall into this category, but in particular your thoughts on Donovan McNabb who's a potential HOFer who has twice served time for DUIs.
I don't know the details of his DUIs. I'm lenient on ones that are near the limit, super harsh on ones that are clearly very drunk (I think it should be mandatory 1 year minimum in prison and permanent forfeiture of your driver's license...it's attempted murder without a chosen victim).
I'd strongly consider not voting or someone because of the latter depending on the circumstances. In baseball, at least, the pro football HoF has specifically said to not take character and off-field problems into account. That said, I don't think anyone's voting for Darren Woodson.
HOF
Posted 17 December 2020 - 09:42 AM
The only four that I would vote for on this ballot are Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, & Wagner.
I really think Schilling is a complete douche ( transcends politics), but he should get in.
I think Bonds and Clemens were HOFers before their PED use was so blatantly obvious.
Wagner was a dominant relief pitcher in an era that valued that type of player.
I can't stand the way Manny Ramirez carried himself on a field of play and personally think Sosa benefitted from PEDs moreso than some of his contemporaries, so they don't get my vote.
I have no issue if Rolen, Helton, or Sheffield get in, however, I'm not compelled to vote for them either.
No way that Vizquel gets in with the allegations of spousal abuse.
He was boderline to begin with and anyone that votes for him will be called out as a spousal abuse enabler.
He'll most likely drop off the ballot sooner than later,
HOF
Posted 17 December 2020 - 03:28 PM
There is however, ample precedent for ignoring character.
We have certainly seen an attempt to push back on that over the past 15 or so years by people that don't want (more) steroid users in the Hall. Many of those same people ignored character though until they started seeing cherished records crumble.
Yeah, It's funny how Barry Bonds' character was even more assailed after he hit the 73 homers.
There were articles about the Lazy Boy chair that he had in front of his locker,
The horror!
HOF
Posted 17 December 2020 - 06:02 PM
I'd vote for Schilling (abhorrent person but worthy despite that), Clemens (HOF worthy even before PED usage), Bonds (same), Wagner (don't know how people are missing this guy but he was absolutely fantastic out of the pen for a long long time), and Manny Ramirez (I may be slightly biased here but perhaps the best right-handed hitter I've ever seen with the possible exception of Mike Trout). I'd probably vote for Scott Rolen as well. If Sheffield got in I wouldn't be upset. If Vizquel gets in I will be upset. He had an exceptional career but he's just no where near a Hall of Famer and I'm puzzled he has as much support as he has.
Owner
Posted 20 December 2020 - 09:37 AM
CBS Sports: Andruw Jones is one of the best defensive outfielders ever; so why doesn't he have more Hall of Fame support?
https://www.cbssport...f-fame-support/
Owner
Posted 20 December 2020 - 09:39 AM
Bonds
Clemens
M.Ramirez
Sheffield
Schilling
Rolen
VizquelWagner
Abreu
Helton
The first 5 I'd definitely have, the second 5 I can be talked into. Each of them has a decent argument.
I didn't realize Vizquel's career WAR was about half of Smith. He's off the list. If the abuse allegations are accurate, easy for me to to vote for him.
Abreu had a very good career, and he was generally underrated in his career... but I think he's more Hall of Very Good.
I left off Jeff Kent. Obviously wasn't a fielder, but has an argument for his bat, and his career numbers at 2nd vs. other HOF 2nd baseman.
Owner
Posted 20 December 2020 - 09:40 AM
We had an extended discussion on the HOF on the last episode of The Warehouse.
One guy we didn't discuss was Sosa.
MVP
Posted 21 December 2020 - 09:19 AM
CBS Sports: Andruw Jones is one of the best defensive outfielders ever; so why doesn't he have more Hall of Fame support?
https://www.cbssport...f-fame-support/
He tanked at the age of 31. Went from one of the best to one of the worst defenders, and his bat was okay.
Not HOF worthy in my book.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 11:58 AM
He tanked at the age of 31. Went from one of the best to one of the worst defenders, and his bat was okay.
Not HOF worthy in my book.
Yea, I don't see Jones as a HOF guy. He was basically done when he left the Braves. I don't think he is very close to a HOF guy.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:33 PM
He tanked at the age of 31. Went from one of the best to one of the worst defenders, and his bat was okay.
Not HOF worthy in my book.
It's a strange coincidence that the same thing happened to Dale Murphy, the other great Braves' CF. Pretty much done after 31.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:50 PM
OTV
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:54 PM
Best defensive CF of all time. Above avg hitter. 400+ HRs. If Ozzie Smith is a HOFer Jones is.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 12:58 PM
CF is the most valuable defensive position on the field other than SS. I put a lot of value in that. I do think thats where you have to hang your hat with him. The defense. That said, the offense was solid. Especially his prime.
It’s at least close. Better case than Vizquel.
MVP
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:02 PM
It's a strange coincidence that the same thing happened to Dale Murphy, the other great Braves' CF. Pretty much done after 31.
there is a ton of posters on OH that believe the magic number of 31 is reached, the ball player get a power wand waved over them and is magically a weakened player from that point on.
MVP
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:03 PM
Best defensive CF of all time. Above avg hitter. 400+ HRs. If Ozzie Smith is a HOFer Jones is.
Willie Mays has something to say about this, and he stayed one of the premier CFs, his entire career, not just part.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:13 PM
defensive WAR is a cumulative stat and he put up more than Mays. Not that dWAR is the end all be all but he obviously passed the eye test too.
Willie Mays has something to say about this, and he stayed one of the premier CFs, his entire career, not just part.
HOF
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:15 PM
there is a ton of posters on OH that believe the magic number of 31 is reached, the ball player get a power wand waved over them and is magically a weakened player from that point on.
Yeah, players generally start to decline in their late 20's / early 30's, but great players are declining from such a high peak that they can usually ride out their decline phase for 5-10 years while still being productive. Falling off a cliff is surprising.
MVP
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:22 PM
defensive WAR is a cumulative stat and he put up more than Mays. Not that dWAR is the end all be all but he obviously passed the eye test too.
The eye test for me, was the ability to see Willie play.
Jones did have some better years with the glove, but nothing from age 31 on.
He also didnt have to play CF in the old Polo grounds, which was huge and a ton of area to cover.
I dont care he hit 400 homers in an era with the ball was as juiced as some of the players.
did Jones do enough in his 11 years with the Braves and his glove to make the HOF? Maybe. IMO no, but its not cut and dry and others feel he has, so be it. Not like comparing a rolls royce to a vw beetle.
MVP
Posted 21 December 2020 - 01:23 PM
Yeah, players generally start to decline in their late 20's / early 30's, but great players are declining from such a high peak that they can usually ride out their decline phase for 5-10 years while still being productive. Falling off a cliff is surprising.
a serious injury or two, and it makes it very hard to come back and be as productive.
I think there is such a fine line, in their ability to excel better than others, and then coming back to earth.
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