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Heston Kjerstad


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#241 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 02:07 PM

I think what Mike is saying regarding the incentive system in baseball plays a role, but I think this is the primary answer. Other than QB, football is much more tilted to athleticism than skill compared to baseball. Basketball is in between (varies by position and role as well). Athleticism peaks pretty early while the skill and sport IQ peaks later.  

How about soccer and hockey? They both have to have mad skills. Just for reference, if the US Mens National Team had a critical soccer match tomorrow. All but 2 starters would be 23 or younger and a couple of them would be under 21.



#242 JeremyStrain

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 02:26 PM

How about soccer and hockey? They both have to have mad skills. Just for reference, if the US Mens National Team had a critical soccer match tomorrow. All but 2 starters would be 23 or younger and a couple of them would be under 21.


There's a lot of room to get lost in the semantics of athleticism vs skill in this argument.

 

Basically, baseball being a ball and bat sport requires a different level of skill, than Football or Soccer. Not saying at all that they don't require SKILL, because they do, but it's like we need a different word to quantify the ability of using your own body for the sport vs using equipment and the degrees it increases things.

 

Hockey isn't a bad example, using equipment and you have to factor skating ability in as well, but Hockey also has a minor league system where most players go develop from like 17 until 21 ish. The ones that hit the ground running at 18 or 19 are the prodigies.

 

With baseball you've got the equipment factor, the athleticism factor, but then you also have a higher degree of mental factors too. Youve got angles striking the ball, mechanics of your swing to achieve the desired angle of contact, the recognition to tell different pitches apart, and the spatial recognition of the strike zone. That's all just hitting. Pitching you've got a whole game within a game to change speeds, views, location, and keep a guessing game with the hitters going. In the field you've got situations depending on the scenario and runners, almost every ball is hit different, the sun, hops off the dirt or turf. It's just a lot more variables and stuff that players need to learn. You've still got some that speed through, the prodigies, that can hit the ML at like 19/20, but the vast majority are closer to 23.

 

I think soccer and football rely the most on athleticism. Football has a decent amount of mental required in that there are scripted plays you have to memorize, and some positions you have to be able to read the field and certain players (QB/MLB/CB/S).

 

All of them have their own unique blends, but I think baseball outdistances them a bit since the reaction times shrink so much once you clear 18, and as the talent improves on both sides of the ball theres a certain mental game you've got to be able to keep up with for pitching/hitting, it's almost a game within the game. It just takes a little more development than the others do. You even see it a bit in the prodigies really, cause the most elite and talented, the ones that can handle physically playing at that level in their teens, still don't hit their peak or prime for a couple years, they are still learning on the job while they are there too.


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#243 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 03:02 PM

Jeremy no question baseball and using a bat requires some mad skills. But its simply off base to think that soccer requires mostly athleticism. Kicking a ball is way more complex than it looks on the surface.

 

Where do you need that ball to go requires you to kick it with the correct foot angle, on the correct part of the foot, on the correct spot on the ball, and with the correct amount of force. Do you kick it with the instep, top of foot, or outside of the foot? Do you kick the sweet spot on the ball, offset left, or offset right? Do you hit it low for loft, over the top for spin to hit a diving ball? To casual fans it just looks like they are just kicking the ball but it is very similar in skills to what a baseball player does with a bat.



#244 JeremyStrain

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 04:16 PM

Jeremy no question baseball and using a bat requires some mad skills. But its simply off base to think that soccer requires mostly athleticism. Kicking a ball is way more complex than it looks on the surface.

 

Where do you need that ball to go requires you to kick it with the correct foot angle, on the correct part of the foot, on the correct spot on the ball, and with the correct amount of force. Do you kick it with the instep, top of foot, or outside of the foot? Do you kick the sweet spot on the ball, offset left, or offset right? Do you hit it low for loft, over the top for spin to hit a diving ball? To casual fans it just looks like they are just kicking the ball but it is very similar in skills to what a baseball player does with a bat.


Oh I get that too, having a soccer player of my own, trust me, but that's why I was saying we gotta be careful not to get lost in the weeds on the skill/athleticism thing. It's not that it doesn't need it and have it's own subset of stuff, all of them do, but like lets look at the youth levels as they are building.

 

It takes skill to bend a shot, or juggle, or redirect the ball in the air on the fly. No one is trying to take that away. But like in college, players look much more complete than they do in soccer than they do in baseball. There's just still so much, even just on the mental side they are just learning or don't quite get yet in baseball.


Ok, I guess for instance a good example, we talk about it a lot in minors progression. In Low A ball, guys can put up great numbers on raw ability. You are facing all star squads of players, you don't have gimme outs anymore, but you can still completely outmatch guys if you have a really good curve/slider/changeup/splitter etc. Because most of these hitters have just learned how to hit and capitalize on fastballs up to a certain velocity, they haven't seen many guys that can throw a 12-6 curve 80 mph AND keep it in the strike zone, or hit a guy throwing mid 90s. Then when they hit AA they have that increased velocity down and can hit straight fastballs, so pitchers are FORCED to develop their secondary pitches and learn that have to keep guys from sitting fastball. By AAA when they are ready, they can hit those lower-mid 90s FB, they have learned what to watch for to recognize secondaries, and even if they can't hit them, know to lay off of them, and at this level they are learning that guys can throw all these pitches for strikes as well, so now you can't just recognize and ignore secondaries, you gotta be ready to fight them off and stay alive when they throw a curve you werent expecting down and away on the black.

 

That's all just a LOT to start seeing after HS. It's not just about their own talent. It's def not meant as a slight or to belittle soccer players, just trying to acknowledge there's more adjusting and mental stuff baseball guys have to learn aside from the raw talent and skill part. I think that's why you hear tools used more in this sport than others, cause it's like they've physically got what they need to succeed, but they still have to learn some more mental stuff about HOW to use those tools too.


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#245 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 04:29 PM

Fair enough and good discussion.

 

As to the mental aspect, there is one area where soccer requires a skill that baseball doesn't have near the need for and this is understanding given the chess match going on where to expect players to be moving to and when. Baseball is much more static game in that regards. It takes a long time playing with a set of players to really know this aspect. Its one of the main reasons why club teams tend to perform better than national teams. Club players get to train with each other every day for months on end. Not near as much with national teams.


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#246 dude

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 11:27 PM

It just frustrates me to no end how every other sport in the world has gotten more and more out of younger players. But baseball is still stuck in the dark ages.

 

I think we're touching around a number of the issues but I might be able to give the more clear answer(s), but first things first.

 

Why do you care what the age of the players in uniform is?

 

Baseball, like all sports is hyper competitive (well, not rebuilding, but whatever) and careers are made and lost every season based on those head-to-head results.  What you are suggesting is that MLB intentionally undermines the collective ability of teams to put the best product on the field they can.  You don't think if "playing the younger guys" had any merit, someone wouldn't just do it and win-win-win and force the rest of the league to catch them?  

 

This thread is about Heston Kjerstad, why would it matter if him, Diaz, Santander or Jason Heyward was playing RF for the Orioles this season.  Are you really using "age" as your metric for interest in the team?



#247 BSLMikeRandall

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Posted 08 March 2021 - 11:22 AM

I think we're touching around a number of the issues but I might be able to give the more clear answer(s), but first things first.

Why do you care what the age of the players in uniform is?

Baseball, like all sports is hyper competitive (well, not rebuilding, but whatever) and careers are made and lost every season based on those head-to-head results. What you are suggesting is that MLB intentionally undermines the collective ability of teams to put the best product on the field they can. You don't think if "playing the younger guys" had any merit, someone wouldn't just do it and win-win-win and force the rest of the league to catch them?

This thread is about Heston Kjerstad, why would it matter if him, Diaz, Santander or Jason Heyward was playing RF for the Orioles this season. Are you really using "age" as your metric for interest in the team?


Age is just a number. Yes. I become very disinterested when the AAA MVP is told he’s not ready for the majors yet, so the O’s can save a few bucks down the road. But the O’s can’t say that, so they say “try another position for a few weeks”. “Work on a couple things...” and it’s all of sudden, justified.

Age is used as an example though of guys that are obviously able when they debut at 20 or younger and are basically superstars out of the gate. (Harper, Machado, Trout, Correa, Soto...the list goes on).

In an NFL type of model, Diaz would have already competed with Santander for playing time, he’s probably a nothing at this point and the Orioles are giant losers in the Machado deal, and Kjerstad would now get a chance to play. As a first round pick, expectations would be he would compete evenly with Santander, then unseat home for a everyday role in 2022.

At most baseball needs one level down for your young guys to play in, and the draft should be 10 rounds max, and even that’s generous. If you aren’t drafted but have talent, or develop it later, someone will find you, and you can be an undrafted free agent.

Have 100% faith that Rutchman was the better player than Sisco/Severino the day he was drafted. But because it’s they way it’s always been done, we’ll have to wait and see for a couple more years. Then people will say “it’s minor league development”. No. Some guys just have it.
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#248 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 10 April 2021 - 12:03 PM

The lack of clarity is concerning at this point.



#249 B00E00N00

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Posted Yesterday, 01:05 PM

The lack of clarity is concerning at this point.

 

Yeah, what is going on? It's like the start of a mystery plot. 



#250 Mackus

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Posted Yesterday, 01:06 PM

He's got a non-baseball health issue. He and the team are under no obligation to reveal confidential health information to the public. The team, in fact, is under strict legal regulations to not reveal any information.

Agree is frustrating that such a high pick can't get on the field.

#251 B00E00N00

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Posted Yesterday, 01:19 PM

He's got a non-baseball health issue. He and the team are under no obligation to reveal confidential health information to the public. The team, in fact, is under strict legal regulations to not reveal any information.

Agree is frustrating that such a high pick can't get on the field.

 

Then why did Elias say he'd be there and he isn't? Unless this was a very recent development it doesn't make sense,



#252 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted Yesterday, 01:20 PM

Hopefully they are just being cautious

#253 Ricker Says

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Posted Yesterday, 01:34 PM

Total speculation, but maybe he got the vaccine and is waiting the 14 day period until he's fully protected. Who knows. Just hope he's healthy.


"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~ The Earl of Baltimore

#254 Mackus

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Posted Yesterday, 02:40 PM

Then why did Elias say he'd be there and he isn't? Unless this was a very recent development it doesn't make sense,

 

Did he say that?

 

In early March they said he wouldn't join Spring Training and would report to Bowie at some point but didn't put a specific date on it that I saw.



#255 B00E00N00

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Posted Yesterday, 03:42 PM

Did he say that?

 

In early March they said he wouldn't join Spring Training and would report to Bowie at some point but didn't put a specific date on it that I saw.

Elias said he would report to the alternate site and he didn't.  Now were not hearing anything.  I mean I guess it could be HIPPA,  but I don't know..... Either way, it's such a shame that such a high pick is not able to get his work in, and to start his career for the O's. 



#256 Mackus

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Posted Yesterday, 03:47 PM

Bowie is the alternate site. That's where Elias said he'd report in early March. He wasn't on the initial roster released a few days ago. Does that mean he can't be added? I didn't think it meant that. If it does, that's concerning, if not, then nothing to see here aside from the fact which we already knew that he's not medically ready to play yet.

#257 B00E00N00

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Posted Yesterday, 04:15 PM

Bowie is the alternate site. That's where Elias said he'd report in early March. He wasn't on the initial roster released a few days ago. Does that mean he can't be added? I didn't think it meant that. If it does, that's concerning, if not, then nothing to see here aside from the fact which we already knew that he's not medically ready to play yet.

 

Unfortunately I'm not sure of that.  Let's hope things turn out well (Crossing my fingers).






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