84 replies to this topic

[birdwatcher55]

Bill Ballou (Worcester Telegram): Mariano Rivera not getting this writer’s Hall of Fame vote
 
I suggest reading this, not just because I think he makes a few decent points based around reliever usage and having their value come from perception instead of results, but for the fairly surprising twist at the end.

Ballou is a nutcase..lol

[BSLChrisStoner]

FanGraphs: Jay Jaffe’s 2019 Hall of Fame Virtual Ballot

[BSLChrisStoner]

The Ringer: Statheads, Rejoice: Hall of Fame Voting Is Starting to Make Sense

[BSLChrisStoner]

CBS Sports: Baseball Hall of Fame 2019: In Fred McGriff's swan song on the ballot, let's remember what conspired against him
https://www.cbssport...ed-against-him/

[CA-ORIOLE]

CBS Sports: Baseball Hall of Fame 2019: In Fred McGriff's swan song on the ballot, let's remember what conspired against him
https://www.cbssport...ed-against-him/

Get 'em Crime Dog. 

[SBTarheel]

It's going to be painfully close for Mussina, but I think he falls just short.

 

Normally it's about a 7-10% drop off after the public ballots are done being released..He's at 81% right now.

 

But the good news, he's virtually a lock next year. 

[SportsGuy]

It's going to be painfully close for Mussina, but I think he falls just short.
 
Normally it's about a 7-10% drop off after the public ballots are done being released..He's at 81% right now.
 
But the good news, he's virtually a lock next year. 

People voting for Vizquel but not moose are sickening.

The HOF voting needs another makeover

[DJ MC]

People voting for Vizquel but not moose are sickening.

The HOF voting needs another makeover

 

Nah. It's not a great look, but it's fine.

 

You're never going to have "perfect" Hall of Fame ballots, because you are never going to have agreements over exactly what is being valued, what people consider deal-breakers, and so on.

 

They got rid of most of the dead weight with the purge following the limitation of post-baseball-writing time a few years ago. Of the remainder, with the publication of more and more ballots before and in the immediate aftermath of voting it is becoming more and more difficult to hide or justify truly bad ballots. There is no way to permanently rid us of them, but things are a lot better than they were.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I still don’t get the people who vote for Clemens and not Bonds

[BSLChrisStoner]

FanGraphs: History for the Hall with Unanimity, and Another Quartet

[SportsGuy]

The worst part about Rivera getting 100% is that Jeter will get it now too.

 

Its bad enough that he is overrated to begin with, now he will have another "accolade" to attach himself to.

[Mike in STL]

The worst part about Rivera getting 100% is that Jeter will get it now too.

Its bad enough that he is overrated to begin with, now he will have another "accolade" to attach himself to.

Unless the writers are out there that know Jeter will get in, so they vote for someone else they think needs it.

I bet all the writers thought Rivera needed it.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Rivera's greatness in what he was asked to do can't be taken away from him.... like was said earlier, have no problem with anyone saying he's a HOF. He is.  Also glad that someone finally got 100%. 

But... I do find it funny that Mussina was on the edge, and Rivera was 100%. 

Does anyone think that if Mussina had only closed games, he wouldn't have had immense success? 
Does anyone think that if Rivera had had been asked to start, he would have been regarded as good? 

 

He was talented enough for me to believe that even with 1 pitch he might have found some success... but he wouldn't have had the career he had in-terms of domination or length.

 

 

Yes, I get that you only get to judge them on what happened and not hypothetical.  So strictly on what happened between the lines, I think Mussina's career was more valuable... even when factoring in leverage / win probability. 

[SportsGuy]

Rivera's greatness in what he was asked to do can't be taken away from him.... like was said earlier, have no problem with anyone saying he's a HOF. He is. Also glad that someone finally got 100%.

But... I do find it funny that Mussina was on the edge, and Rivera was 100%.

Does anyone think that if Mussina had only closed games, he wouldn't have had immense success?
Does anyone think that if Rivera had had been asked to start, he would have been regarded as good?

He was talented enough for me to believe that even with 1 pitch he might have found some success... but he wouldn't have had the career he had in-terms of domination or length.


Yes, I get that you only get to judge them on what happened and not hypothetical. So strictly on what happened between the lines, I think Mussina's career was more valuable... even when factoring in leverage / win probability.

I find it funny that Smoltz was such a shoo in but it took Moose all this time.

People lauded Smoltz for being able to be a good closer and a good starter.

Literally part of the reason Smoltz got in is because he excelled at a LESSER role. That’s conpletely idiotic.

[Mackus]

I find it funny that Smoltz was such a shoo in but it took Moose all this time.

People lauded Smoltz for being able to be a good closer and a good starter.

Literally part of the reason Smoltz got in is because he excelled at a LESSER role. That’s conpletely idiotic.

 

This is a very interesting point.

 

Smoltz' stats as a SP only are very similar to Schilling's.  Their careers also largely overlapped in the same league, so you don't have the AL adjustment you have for Mussina.

 

	Smoltz	Schilling Mussina
Starts	481	436	  536
IP	3211.2	3079.1	  3562.2
ERA	3.40	3.45	  3.68
ERA+	125	127	  123
Wins	209	206	  270
Losses	149	134	  153

 

I do think both Smoltz and Schilling should get big bumps forward because of their postseason success.  Mussina certainly didn' struggle in the postseason, but Smoltz and Schilling excelled.  Smoltz also gets additional credit for his 3 seasons as a dominant closer.  

 

Note: ERA+ above is career, not just the numbers as a starter as everything else is.  Can't break down ERA+ into splits.

[SportsGuy]

The problem isn’t Smoltz getting in...he should have been a first ballot guy.

But he isn’t more deserving than Moose and shouldn’t be given extra credit because he excelled as a closer. That’s just stupid and I heard several writers make that out to be such a big deal.

[SportsGuy]

Seeing as WAR is a counting stat and they don’t properly rate relievers, the idea that Mussina had a WAR that was 16 wins higher then Smoltz is a little misleading.

That being said, it’s also not Moose’s fault that he was healthy and never had to be demoted to closer.

Schilling actually only had a WAR of 2 wins less than Moose and had far fewer starts. Just another reason he should easily be in. Of course, you know some of these morons hold his politics and what he says publicly against him.

Still though, combine his regular season and postseason success and you have a guy who is easily a HOFer.

Yet Smoltz gets in with ease. It’s just not logical.

[BSLChrisStoner]

@JoeTrezz

It's the big day in Cooperstown for Mike Mussina, Mariano Rivera and four others. Behold the sights & sounds from Hall of Fame induction day:

[mweb08]

It's Harold Baines Day!!!

[BSLChrisStoner]

It's Harold Baines Day!!!

Well... even if I don't think he should be in the HOF, he had one of the most beautiful swings of all time.  Before his knees were gone (fairly early in his career), he was supposedly a strong all-around guy.