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#81 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:08 AM

People like me? Wtf is that supposed to mean? Can you show me quotes where I said they were overdrafts and bad picks?

I hate when they draft athlete first, baseball player second guys...always have.

#82 bnickle

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:14 AM

Good post RZ. Very well said. We can nitpick on how good some of the guys you mentioned are however, they are making some strides and because of that, they could carry some value on the trade market, so that is good.

In terms of your last statement. As I have said, if it's was close and you valued the pitcher higher, so be it. I have already said I'm totally fine with that. We will never know if that was the case or not.

That being said, I still have an issue with the thought process and subsequent results.

There is nothing wrong with the thought process as long as they aren't passing up significantly better talent. Teams do this all the time. They focus on certain areas to replenish. In theory it also makes more sense to do this in baseball than any other sport where there is a higher bust rate. 



#83 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:16 AM

People like me? Wtf is that supposed to mean? Can you show me quotes where I said they were overdrafts and bad picks?

I hate when they draft athlete first, baseball player second guys...always have.

 

 

LOL.   You should have quoted me.  I forget the context I said it in.   Let me put it this way.   You think you know more about the draft than you do.   For someone who knows as little as you do, you are way too critical.    I know it's not fair to bring this up once again, but you are the guy who once advocated taking Christian Colon over Manny Machado because he was more of a sure thing and would get to the majors quicker.    We should be judging drafts in hindsight.   We aren't smart enough to judge them now.   That goes for everyone on here with the possible exception of Stotle who I do think is qualified to first guess.

 

 

Also, under Rajisch, how many athletes first, baseball players have they drafted?   How many can you name in the next 5 minutes?



#84 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:21 AM

LOL. You should have quoted me. I forget the context I said it in. Let me put it this way. You think you know more about the draft than you do. For someone who knows as little as you do, you are way too critical. I know it's not fair to bring this up once again, but you are the guy who once advocated taking Christian Colon over Manny Machado because he was more of a sure thing and would get to the majors quicker. We should be judging drafts in hindsight. We aren't smart enough to judge them now. That goes for everyone on here with the possible exception of Stotle who I do think is qualified to first guess.


Also, under Rajisch, how many athletes first, baseball players have they drafted? How many can you name in the next 5 minutes?

1). I don't know anything about the draft except for what I read. Never said otherwise, so spare me that bs.

2). I wasted Colon over Manny because I thought they would screw up Manny and that Colon seemed like a guy they wouldn't screw up. Glad I was wrong and glad the Orioles were an incompetent on that as I felt they were.

The consensus was that Manny needed some help and wasn't there yet. I was worried about the Orioles getting him there and felt they had to hit on that top pick.

3) I have no issues with the players...I have an issue with the process.

You are just making shit up at this point.

The athletes first comment was in regards to Hart.

#85 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:22 AM

There is nothing wrong with the thought process as long as they aren't passing up significantly better talent. Teams do this all the time. They focus on certain areas to replenish. In theory it also makes more sense to do this in baseball than any other sport where there is a higher bust rate. 


I agree with all of this.

#86 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:27 AM

1). I don't know anything about the draft except for what I read. Never said otherwise, so spare me that bs.

2). I wasted Colon over Manny because I thought they would screw up Manny and that Colon seemed like a guy they wouldn't screw up. Glad I was wrong and glad the Orioles were an incompetent on that as I felt they were.

3) I have no issues with the players...I have an issue with the process.

You are just making shit up at this point.

The athletes first comment was in regards to Hart.

 

 

What shit did  I make up?   Name  ONE thing.   Josh Hart was not an athlete first.   Again, you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.   Josh Hart was a consensus 1st round talent taken in the supplemental round.    Rated highly by BA and MLB as a BASEBALL PLAYER with tools.

 

For someone who knows next to nothing, as you do, do you really think your qualified to question their process?

 

 

Nowhere in the BA description of Hart does it describe him as a raw player with tools.  He was a baseball player first.
 

Hart has excellent hand-eye coordination, generates good bat speed and has a knack for finding the barrel of the bat. He consistently sprays line drives from gap-to-gap, has some polish in his plate approach and should be able to develop the plate discipline to become a leadoff factor. Scouts have reported him as a 60 runner turning in 4.0-second times to first base from the left side. His speed also plays in center field, where he shows some polish as well. The Georgia Tech signee performed most of the spring and was expected to go out in the first round or supplemental round.



#87 bnickle

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:28 AM

LOL.   You should have quoted me.  I forget the context I said it in.   Let me put it this way.   You think you know more about the draft than you do.   For someone who knows as little as you do, you are way too critical.    I know it's not fair to bring this up once again, but you are the guy who once advocated taking Christian Colon over Manny Machado because he was more of a sure thing and would get to the majors quicker.    We should be judging drafts in hindsight.   We aren't smart enough to judge them now.   That goes for everyone on here with the possible exception of Stotle who I do think is qualified to first guess.

 

 

Also, under Rajisch, how many athletes first, baseball players have they drafted?   How many can you name in the next 5 minutes?

Rob will lose his shit, but this is a fair post. I have no problem with having opinions and feeling strongly about them when it comes to this stuff.  Even pat yourself on the back when you get one right.  As long as in the end, you acknowledge that you  arent qualified to  be so critical of the people who do this for a living. 



#88 bnickle

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:33 AM

Rob will lose his shit, but this is a fair post. I have no problem with having opinions and feeling strongly about them when it comes to this stuff.  Even pat yourself on the back when you get one right.  As long as in the end, you acknowledge that you  arent qualified to  be so critical of the people who do this for a living. 

At least not until they give you a reason to be overly critical at this point in the process. Im not a huge Rajish fan but as RZNJ has laid out, there have been enough positives to know he's a competent Scouting Director. He gets the benefit of the doubt with his philosophy and selections on draft day. 



#89 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:49 AM

Rob will lose his shit, but this is a fair post. I have no problem with having opinions and feeling strongly about them when it comes to this stuff.  Even pat yourself on the back when you get one right.  As long as in the end, you acknowledge that you  arent qualified to  be so critical of the people who do this for a living. 

Im not losing my shit because its false.  I acknowledge that i don't know anything about these guys. 

 

I do think the Orioles have failed miserably in drafting and developing and the poor farm system, our inability to make trades, etc,,,bears that out.

 

For all the guys RZ has named, teams aren;t exactly knocking down our doors to get them either.  We hear all the time that we can;t make moves because we don't have the talent.

 

Are you saying that they do have a good farm system?  Rajisch has been here long enough that the organization should be in better shape, right?



#90 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:49 AM

What shit did I make up?   20 minutes have gone by.   If you are going to accuse me of making stuff up and least be man enough to provide some proof of it.     crickets



#91 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:50 AM

What shit did  I make up?   Name  ONE thing.   Josh Hart was not an athlete first.   Again, you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.   Josh Hart was a consensus 1st round talent taken in the supplemental round.    Rated highly by BA and MLB as a BASEBALL PLAYER with tools.

 

For someone who knows next to nothing, as you do, do you really think your qualified to question their process?

 

 

Nowhere in the BA description of Hart does it describe him as a raw player with tools.  He was a baseball player first.
 

That I think I know more about the draft than they do.  That's a fucking stupid comment to make. 



#92 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:57 AM

That I think I know more about the draft than they do.  That's a fucking stupid comment to make. 

 

 

I'll let the rest of the board judge me on that comment.   Should you really be using such language on a Sunday morning?    You made stuff up about drafting athletes instead of baseball players.    You couldn't provide one such player.     You are completely wrong on Josh Hart.   See, once again, you think you know more than you do.

 

BTW, if you are going to accuse me of making stuff up at least get that part right.   Here's what I said.

 

 You think you know more about the draft than you do. 

 

I didn't say you think you know more than they do (although one could get that impression)



#93 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:09 AM

My bad RZ. I misread the comment. I'm sorry for that.

And I only know about the draft what I read and what guys like Nick have told me.

And I thought I recalled Hart being talked about as an athlete first type guy and a lot of the stuff you quoted speaks to that. If I'm misremembering, so be it but I can't say Im surprised he has busted either.

#94 SportsGuy

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:10 AM

So, we have had enough drafts with Rajisch at the helm.

I assume RZ thinks our system is really good and that everything said about it is wrong? I also assume RZ believes we can go out and get whatever we want at the deadline and outbid teams, right?

#95 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:21 AM

So, we have had enough drafts with Rajisch at the helm.

I assume RZ thinks our system is really good and that everything said about it is wrong? I also assume RZ believes we can go out and get whatever we want at the deadline and outbid teams, right?

 

 

I think I laid out Rajsich's draft's pretty well.   Our farm system is not in good shape.     That can't all be laid at the feet of Rajisch.   Just because the system is not a great shape and we can't go out and get whatever we want at the deadline does not mean that Rajisch has done a poor job drafting.   As I said, Stewart is his big miss so far.    I know keeping a balanced view might be a little tough for you but Rajisch has drafted at these positions since 2012.

 

4 (Gausman)

22 Harvey

90 Brian Gonzalez

25 D.J. Stewart

 

You'd expect some return on a high first round pick.   He's had one to work with.    He hit on Harvey but Harvey got hurt.   Does that make Harvey a good pick at #22 overall or a bad one?    You tell me.    Even if Harvey was healthy, at age 21, he's probably in AA or AAA right now.    The 2013 HS draft was HS heavy.      The 2014 draft was almost not a draft.    

 

I pointed to Rasjich's drafts and pointed out how he's done a decent job.   Aren't you knowledgeable enough to counter that post?



#96 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:30 AM

Rajsich drafted players traded for ML talent.

 

19th round -  Josh Hader for Bud Norris

3rd round - Steven Tarpley for Travis Snider

11th round - Steven Brault  for Travis Snider

17th round - Jean Cosme for Despaigne

 

 

There might be one or two more but that's all I can think of right now.



#97 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:39 AM

When you don't don't do anything / much internationally, and you give away other picks... you can't afford misses with 1sts and supplemental picks.

 

Hart has a sub .600 OPS in just under 1,100 professional ab's. Repeating at the Carolina League level, he has a .539 OPS.

 

He's horrible.

 

I'm not closing the door yet on Stewart...but certainly eyebrows are raised. It was disappointing that the transition to Aberdeen last year didn't go better. It was disappointing that he he had to start at Delmarva as an advanced College bat. It is disappointing that he has a .711 OPS.  Hopefully the light goes on, and stays on.



#98 RichardZ

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:51 AM

When you don't don't do anything / much internationally, and you give away other picks... you can't afford misses with 1sts and supplemental picks.

 

Hart has a sub .600 OPS in just under 1,100 professional ab's. Repeating at the Carolina League level, he has a .539 OPS.

 

He's horrible.

 

I'm not closing the door yet on Stewart...but certainly eyebrows are raised. It was disappointing that the transition to Aberdeen last year didn't go better. It was disappointing that he he had to start at Delmarva as an advanced College bat. It is disappointing that he has a .711 OPS.  Hopefully the light goes on, and stays on.

 

 

But everyone does, especially picks at the #27 and the #37 spots in the draft.    It's like you're saying that Rajisch has to be better because the organization is making his job more difficult.    Because he's been handicapped, he "can't miss" on any picks.   He's had some misses but he's had his share of hits too.    Sisco, Heim, Mountcastle, Harvey, Gausman, Hader.

 

And before you say that Gausman was a no brainer keep in mind that Zunino and Buxton were drafted before Gausman and Zimmer, Almora, Fried, Appel, Heaney, and Dahl were drafted after.



#99 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:51 AM

1). They may have valued Akin higher. I have already acknowledged that.

2). I just personally don't believe they did value him higher. They set out to draft 3 college pitchers early. That is obvious. When you have something in your mind that this is what you are going to do, you tend to ignore other things. Or, instead of ignore, place more value on what you want.

3). And yes, as I have also said,McNulty is right about many things including saving money for later. However, it doesn't seem like they did that in the first 10 rounds and I don't see why you wait for a falling gem later when you can get one sooner. Plus, you don't know for sure that a player is going to fall anyway.

Again, people are making arguments against me...and they aren't arguments I am making nor disagreeing with. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

My issue is simple and it's one thing...if you are going to pigeonhole yourself in saying this is what we sought out and this is what we got, I think that's a flawed strategy and it makes you reach for a player instead of taking the BPA.

The Orioles farm system is devoid of talent. We need the best talent. They already F'ed and lost multiple picks in this draft and because of that, you are putting less talent in the system than you should have. To me, the remedy for all of that is not to take guys that you rank worse than others. Again, if it's close, fine...if you did rank those guys higher, that's fine too.

I just doubt they did because of what they have said and what they did. There is no reason for them to lie to us. They could have taken a number of bats early and they didnt. They took college arms because they wanted college arms.

 

 

I don't understand what's so hard to grasp here.

You aren't saying that you disliked the selection of Akin. You aren't claiming that Akin wasn't the highest pick on their board.

You aren't saying that lists like BA or MLB Pipeline or 2080 are gospel.

You aren't saying you know anything about these players but what you read.

You certainly aren't saying you know more than the O's Scouting Department.

You've acknowledged that even if Akin wasn't the highest pick on the board, and that he was an underslot they liked, that they know they can sign at X, and have more funds to play with later... that you get that's part of the strategy teams employ.


You are simply asking the question... did the O's take best the talent available, or did they come into the draft with a philosophy which might have prevented that? 


Asking the question does not equate to having an opinion that the opposing action is what happened.  It's a question, and a legitimate one. Especially when the O's stated  before the draft what their philosophy was, and their actions have matched those comments.



#100 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:01 AM

But everyone does, especially picks at the #27 and the #37 spots in the draft.    It's like you're saying that Rajisch has to be better because the organization is making his job more difficult.    Because he's been handicapped, he "can't miss" on any picks.   He's had some misses but he's had his share of hits too.    Sisco, Heim, Mountcastle, Harvey, Gausman, Hader.

 

Good he have should have hits. No problem giving him Gausman, but making a selection that 98% of arm-chair analysts would have made does little for me.

Sisco, great job.  Heim check.

 

I like to give Rajisch credit for Harvey. I think that was excellent. Harvey went 22nd that year, and he grabbed a kid with obvious high ceiling that others were shy to. Whatever happens with Harvey going forward, I think that is a win.

Mountcastle's bat looks promising. Nice to see him having success in the Sally. Based on what I've heard from our guys on his defensive profile, I'm not overly excited there... but it's fine and accurate to count the selection as a win so far.

 

 

I'm not overly down on Rajisch. I think he (like many in the organization) are often forced to operate with a hand tied. And I totally agree with the point that everyone is going to have misses....   but Hart's abject failure, and Stewart having immediate trouble transitioning to pro ball both at Aberdeen last year, Delmarva this year, and having the Player Development types thinking he has to be rebuilt as a hitter (his calling card) are black eyes on Rajisch's resume imo. 






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