411 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

Not sure what you are looking at in terms of Brock's defense. His defensive numbers do jump off the BB-ref page, but they jump off in the negative direction. dWAR of -17. Total Zone runs against average, which you mention, of -51. Had a positive number in that category from 63-68, but negative the other 13 of his 19 years.

Fair enough. He was great defensively some years in his prime and then there was a steep drop off. Given the hits he racked up in a pitchers era and the number of steals, he's probably a low end HOFer. At the time, 3,000 hits is automatic enshrinement. 500 homers used to be.

I'm not trying to call Raines a bad player. He good. There are definitely some guys in the hall who shouldn't be. As is anything where there is vote, some things will be be disagreed upon unless the vote is 100% to 0% which hasn't happend yet. Doesn't mean we need to add more.

Since you guys don't agree with Brock, doesn't mean you have to have Raines since he was better. Same reason we don't agree with Sutter being in. Doesn't mean that since he's there I have to put Hoffman, Wagner, Lee Smith in there.

So is Kenny Lofton a Hall of Famer? Is Scott Rolen if we want to look stricly at WAR since it solves all debates by my encompassing everything?

If Scott Rolen and Kenny Lofton are HOFers it definitely becomes the Hall of pretty good. It's what I was saying last night. Where does it stop if you keep going with "well because this guy is in, this guy should be."? If Brock is in then Lofton should be, right? If Lofton is in Lenny Dyksta should be. If Dykstra is in Johnny Damon should be. If Damon is in Torii Hunter should be one day. Where does it end if you keep putting in good but not the best players? Nick Markakis?

There have been guys elected that shouldn't be. Nothing we can do about that, except elect only the absolute best players going forward.

[mweb08]

If Brock is a low end HOF'er, Raines is an easy HOF'er.

 

You're making a really weird argument when you're saying certain guys should be in the HOF, but electing guys as good or better makes it the Hall of pretty good. The guys you are talking about are clearly not diminishing the standards of the Hall.

[Mike in STL]

If Brock is a low end HOF'er, Raines is an easy HOF'er.
 
You're making a really weird argument when you're saying certain guys should be in the HOF, but electing guys as good or better makes it the Hall of pretty good. The guys you are talking about are clearly not diminishing the standards of the Hall.

It's a matter of opinion who you think is better than who. There are similar players stats wise (Abreu) and similar in WAR (Lofton) to Raines. Yes. Putting Abreu and Lofton in makes it a lower bar to gain entry. Raines compares closely to Lou Brock. Speed, hits, lacks power, and you don't want Brock in....So you're making my point for me.

Like others said. They want to take their kids to the Hall and say "there's Bonds. He could do it all. Hit the ball a mile, they walked him with the bases loaded once rather than pitch to him." "There's Clemens. What a pitcher. No one more dominant. A ton of Cy young awards." "There's Griffey. Best swing in baseball, made highlight reel catches, made baseball cool, could have got 800 homers if not for injuries."

You want to go "There's Tim Raines. He was.....fast.....and....um...he was fast".

"Over here is Scott Rolen...he was...pretty good. His WAR is higher than Raines so he deservedly got in."

[SportsGuy]

I heard Russo have the argument of Hall of the very good or Hall of the Ruthian level?

 

If its the Hall of the Ruthian level, won't there only be a few guys in it?

[Pedro Cerrano]

I heard Russo have the argument of Hall of the very good or Hall of the Ruthian level?

If its the Hall of the Ruthian level, won't there only be a few guys in it?

Yea guys like Bonds and Clem....oh wait.

[Icterus galbula]

There was a good Posnanski article a few years ago about the small hall of fame cliche of being for "guys like Mays" and then he went through all sorts of amazing players who weren't Mays and finally not even Mays was Mays.

[SportsGuy]

Timmy K on Pudge:

 

http://espn.go.com/m...all-fame-ballot

[Mackus]

If all you can say about Tim Raines is he was fast then you aren't paying attention.

123 career OPS+

Some comparisons:
Paul Molitor 122
Andre Dawson 119
Derek Jeter 115
Cal Ripken 112
Craig Biggio 112
Ichiro Suzuki 108

[Mike in STL]

If all you can say about Tim Raines is he was fast then you aren't paying attention.

123 career OPS+

Some comparisons:
Paul Molitor 122
Andre Dawson 119
Derek Jeter 115
Cal Ripken 112
Craig Biggio 112
Ichiro Suzuki 108

You should put that on his plaque he won't be getting,

[Mike in STL]

Probably shouldnt use OPS+ as a measuring stick for success.

Raines is tied for 276th all time in OPS+. Yeah hes higher than the other HOFers listed. Let's put the other 200 some odd guys with better OPS+ in too.

Hes fast and 276th in OPS+. Other than his high OBP, the rest of His body of work is good. Not great. At least the majority of the body of work for Dawson, Ripken, Biggio, Molitor etc was Hall worthy. Even if their OPS+ wasn't.

[Pedro Cerrano]

You should put that on his plaque he won't be getting,

He's getting in next year most likely.

[mweb08]

If Brock is a low end HOF'er, Raines is an easy HOF'er.
 
You're making a really weird argument when you're saying certain guys should be in the HOF, but electing guys as good or better makes it the Hall of pretty good. The guys you are talking about are clearly not diminishing the standards of the Hall.

It's a matter of opinion who you think is better than who. There are similar players stats wise (Abreu) and similar in WAR (Lofton) to Raines. Yes. Putting Abreu and Lofton in makes it a lower bar to gain entry. Raines compares closely to Lou Brock. Speed, hits, lacks power, and you don't want Brock in....So you're making my point for me.

Like others said. They want to take their kids to the Hall and say "there's Bonds. He could do it all. Hit the ball a mile, they walked him with the bases loaded once rather than pitch to him." "There's Clemens. What a pitcher. No one more dominant. A ton of Cy young awards." "There's Griffey. Best swing in baseball, made highlight reel catches, made baseball cool, could have got 800 homers if not for injuries."

You want to go "There's Tim Raines. He was.....fast.....and....um...he was fast".

"Over here is Scott Rolen...he was...pretty good. His WAR is higher than Raines so he deservedly got in."

Raines was way better than Brock.

Yes, it's an opinion of who is better than who, but you're putting out some odd opinions with little in the way of justification. You also keep on talking about lowering the bar to get into the Hall when that is far from reality. You're talking about a hall of fame that simply doesn't exist.

As far as your last couple little paragraphs, well again it's hard to take you seriously with some of this stuff. First you actually brought up Vince freaking Coleman and now all Tim Raines has going for him was that he was fast. He was an OBP machine and an incredibly skilled and prolific base stealer that is often referred to as the second best leadoff hitter ever.

As for Rolen, well I haven't thought much about his candidacy, but he's probably one of the best defensive third baseman ever, was easily a better hitter than Brooks, and made 7 all-star games.

[mweb08]

I heard Russo have the argument of Hall of the very good or Hall of the Ruthian level?
 
If its the Hall of the Ruthian level, won't there only be a few guys in it?

Yep. They should have the pyramid setup so guys like Russo and Randall can just go straight to the top couple floors.

[mweb08]

Probably shouldnt use OPS+ as a measuring stick for success.

Raines is tied for 276th all time in OPS+. Yeah hes higher than the other HOFers listed. Let's put the other 200 some odd guys with better OPS+ in too.

Hes fast and 276th in OPS+. Other than his high OBP, the rest of His body of work is good. Not great. At least the majority of the body of work for Dawson, Ripken, Biggio, Molitor etc was Hall worthy. Even if their OPS+ wasn't.

Besides with Ripken, what are you actually basing that off of?

[Mackus]

Its just a quick and dirty snapshot of how effective a hitter a guy was. Not definitive that slightly higher means better, but its a good rough estimate.

I bet most of those guys with higher OPS+ than Raines and all the others I listed didnt have nearly the length of career as the HOF guys. To be in the Hall you have to be a great player for a long time. Cant just have 6 or 8 years of success. Raines was great for a long time.

[Mike in STL]

Probably shouldnt use OPS+ as a measuring stick for success.

Raines is tied for 276th all time in OPS+. Yeah hes higher than the other HOFers listed. Let's put the other 200 some odd guys with better OPS+ in too.

Hes fast and 276th in OPS+. Other than his high OBP, the rest of His body of work is good. Not great. At least the majority of the body of work for Dawson, Ripken, Biggio, Molitor etc was Hall worthy. Even if their OPS+ wasn't.

Besides with Ripken, what are you actually basing that off of?

Basing what off of? That Molitor, Dawson, and Biggio are deserved HOFers? Besides being a few of the all around greatest? You don't even need to dig deep to find evidence. They just are elite players.

Don't tell me you think those three shouldnt be in. But Raines should.

[Mackus]

We're telling you Raines deserves to be in because he was a great player, just like those other guys.

I think most of those guys I listed are better than Raines, but all of them are clear Hall of Famers, IMO.

[Icterus galbula]

I'm fine with Biggio and Dawson being in. Raines was just better.

[RShack]

Raines is the new Blyleven...

 

Do we ever find out who voted against Jr.?

[mweb08]

Basing what off of? That Molitor, Dawson, and Biggio are deserved HOFers? Besides being a few of the all around greatest? You don't even need to dig deep to find evidence. They just are elite players.

Don't tell me you think those three shouldnt be in. But Raines should.

 

I just want you to actually support this notion that those guys are somehow clear Hall of Famers but Raines shouldn't be in. 

 

You just knocked Raines career OPS+, yet it's better than all of those guys.