411 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

You are raising the bar a lot man. I'm just not comfortable saying that players who are about as good or better than the average hall of famer shouldn't be in.

Oh, and Mussina and Schilling are easily better than the guys you list.

And you're vastly underrating Raines.

[Icterus galbula]

Do you honestly think Bobby Abreu was a better player than Tim Raines?

[Mike in STL]

Player A: 23 years. .294/.385/.425, 170 HRs. 808 SBs, 2605 hits. 3771 total bases.
0 Gold Gloves.

Player B: 18 years. .291/.395/.475, 288 HRs. 400 SBs, 2470 hits. 4026 total bases.
1 Gold Glove.

I'd say player B is better, I'll even say similar if not better.

[mweb08]

Raines has like a 10 WAR edge. He's literally the best base stealer ever in terms of efficiency, and that's a pretty big deal.

Raines also played during a much lower run environment.

[mweb08]

Moving over to Sheffield, his D was quite poor, and that has to matter.

[Pedro Cerrano]

The CS% is huge for Raines IMO.

[Icterus galbula]

Effects from ballpark and yearly hitting boost Abreus portfolio

It's not because I have a crush on the Expos, analytics, or a hive mind. I just look at Raines resume and see it as a certain HOF resume.

[Mike in STL]

Raines has like a 10 WAR edge. He's literally the best base stealer ever on terms of efficiency, and that's a pretty big deal.

Raines also played during a much lower run environment.

Larry Walker has a higher WAR than Raines with about 600 less games played. But screw him for playing mostly in Colorado, right?

That's what I mean. Best base stealing percentage isn't a qualification for the Hall to me. Brian Kenny was making cases for Billy Wagner because his ERA+ is the best. Super. I'm not poo pooing advanced stats, but if the guy is the leader in one category it doesn't make him a HOFer.

Are we making cases for Andruw Jones because he's the leader in total zone runs as an OFer, whatever that means? Or Kerry Wood for striking out just .29 guys per 9 innings less than leader Randy Johnson? (Minimum1000 IP). Omar Visquel turned more double plays than any other SS. Put him in !

[Mike in STL]

Moving over to Sheffield, his D was quite poor, and that has to matter.

True. But Raines also had a negative dWAR. Not as bad as Sheffield, but still below average. Sheffield has over 10 oWAR edge on Raines. So similar player, Sheffield isn't a HOFer. I don't buy Raines as one. But Sheff is better than Abreu, who as I pointed out is similar, or slightly better than Raines.

[mweb08]

Raines has like a 10 WAR edge. He's literally the best base stealer ever on terms of efficiency, and that's a pretty big deal.

Raines also played during a much lower run environment.

Larry Walker has a higher WAR than Raines with about 600 less games played. But screw him for playing mostly in Colorado, right?

That's what I mean. Best base stealing percentage isn't a qualification for the Hall to me. Brian Kenny was making cases for Billy Wagner because his ERA+ is the best. Super. I'm not poo pooing advanced stats, but if the guy is the leader in one category it doesn't make him a HOFer.

Are we making cases for Andruw Jones because he's the leader in total zone runs as an OFer, whatever that means? Or Kerry Wood for striking out just .29 guys per 9 innings less than leader Randy Johnson? (Minimum1000 IP). Omar Visquel turned more double plays than any other SS. Put him in !

Larry Walker was a great player and has a legit HOF case. Coors is an issue with him as is his durability.

Wagner is the most dominant left handed reliever ever, but he didn't pitch a great deal of innings, so that's a tough case.

Andruw Jones was a fantastic player in his 20's. If you were going off the eye test, then he should be in. However, his career fell off a cliff very early.

You're being rather silly with the last two examples and this focus on one stat for each of these guys. ERA+ though is a pretty great stat to reference.

Regardless, unless you're taking down plaques, I don't see how it makes sense to not accept guys into the hall that clearly exceed the standard, and I'm not including clear mistakes in that.

[Icterus galbula]

I think Walker and Raines should both be HOF.

Neither is towards the top of my list but If Hoffman goes in Wagner should too.

Andruw Jones and Kerry Wood were awesome players but I didn't see quite enough sustained excellence

[mweb08]

Moving over to Sheffield, his D was quite poor, and that has to matter.

True. But Raines also had a negative dWAR. Not as bad as Sheffield, but still below average. Sheffield has over 10 oWAR edge on Raines. So similar player, Sheffield isn't a HOFer. I don't buy Raines as one. But Sheff is better than Abreu, who as I pointed out is similar, or slightly better than Raines.

Abreu was not better or as good as Raines. Are you just refusing to consider the differences in era's and the record level base stealing?

Sheff was a HOF hitter, then it's just a matter of what you want to do with his defense, which was significantly worse than Raines'.

[Mike in STL]

Is Vince Coleman a hall of famer?

[Mike in STL]

If you want to talk about eras, maybe Abreu steals 800 bases instead of 400 if he plays in Raines era. Era has nothing to do with his slightly better slash line than Raines'

[Icterus galbula]

Is Vince Coleman a hall of famer?

No but he is several degrees worse than Raines. I get the one category point. I personally think there are ten more deserving candidates than McGwire. I feel like some perspective had been lost on what made a HOF plsyer the first 75 years

[mweb08]

Is Vince Coleman a hall of famer?

It's getting hard to take you seriously.

[mweb08]

If you want to talk about eras, maybe Abreu steals 800 bases instead of 400 if he plays in Raines era. Era has nothing to do with his slightly better slash line than Raines'

Actually it does.

[Mike in STL]

Is Vince Coleman a hall of famer?

It's getting hard to take you seriously.

But he stole all those bases!

[mweb08]

I get being lukewarm about Raines. I don't get thinking he lacks a reasonable case. He's towards the bottom of my top 10.

But if PEDs aren't a hindrance, these guys have to be on someone's ballot imo:

Bonds
Clemens
Griffey
Piazza
Bagwell
Schilling
Mussina

[mweb08]

Is Vince Coleman a hall of famer?

It's getting hard to take you seriously.

But he stole all those bases!

Come on man.