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Matt Wieters


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#641 dude

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 11:47 AM

But you have to define bust first.

 

This. 

 

People are using their own definitions of the word and then evaluating another's perspective when their definition is likely [different to very different].

 

Your position on his career, like most things, is tied to expectations.

 

Matt Wieters had a successful ML career.  18.9 Career WAR, over 60M in career earnings, multiple AS games, good reputation in the Game.

 

If your expectations are based on the average 1-5 pick, or catchers in general, or comparison to the group of draftees or players that just hope to make the Majors, fine, not a bust.

 

....but there is no player in Oriole history that likely had more expectations of what he could become than Matt Wieters.  Whether that's fair or not in the context of expectations for any ML Player we can discuss, but it clearly was there.  There were no expectations for Rowell or Hobgood.  Lots of people hated those picks.  Neither ever carried any significant expectations on what they could be at National, even local, level.  Wieters was viewed as an impact bat and the questions surrounding the Orioles was would they be willing to draft him given his profile and agents.  Wieters was supposed to save the franchise.  The local and National fanbases and media had that perspective  If that's unfair, that's, again, a different discussion, but it was largely the  same conversation we're having about Adley being the 'best catcher in the league' right now and the pressure associated with that label.

 

If your expectations are that of a HoF player, of an impact offensive and defensive player that will carry the franchise on their back then Matt Wieters has fallen more short of that expectation than any other Oriole.

 

We're using different definitions.


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#642 Mackus

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 11:50 AM

From 2008 through 2017 Wieters was 10th in MLB in WAR.  That's a decade that spans a year before he arrived thru a year after he left.

 

If we ignore defense as being unreliable statistically, he's way further down.  29th (of 74) in OPS.



#643 BSLRoseKatz

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 12:32 PM

I think the stability at catcher makes his career more valuable than if he had played any other position. Look at the random dudes they stuck at catcher before him (Ramon Hernandez!) and who's been at catcher since then (Welington Castillo!). Knowing catcher wasn't an offseason need for several years definitely had plenty of value given the talent level at the position. 


she/her


#644 Mackus

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 12:37 PM

What's wrong with Ramon Hernandez or Wellington Castillo? Both good players.

#645 JeremyStrain

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 12:46 PM

I think people are confusing disappointment in a player and a bust.

You can be disappointed if they became a run of the mill ML player and not a superstar. But that’s not a bust. A bust is Billy Rowell, Matt Hobgood, Matt Paradis.

Semantics, but important.
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#646 BobPhelan

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 04:06 PM

I think people are confusing disappointment in a player and a bust.

You can be disappointed if they became a run of the mill ML player and not a superstar. But that’s not a bust. A bust is Billy Rowell, Matt Hobgood, Matt Paradis.

Semantics, but important.


Yup, disappointment but nowhere near a bust.

#647 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 04:44 PM

People can have their own opinions on the guy.  But as far as I'm concerned we have never had a bigger bust.


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

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#648 BaltBird 24

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 06:10 PM

Solid, but unspectacular player. We'd appreciate him more had he not come with all the hype. I think anyone who saw him from his first few games saw that he lacked that elite athleticism.
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#649 The Epic

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 07:29 PM

Solid, but unspectacular player. We'd appreciate him more had he not come with all the hype. I think anyone who saw him from his first few games saw that he lacked that elite athleticism.

 

I don't remember who it was, but somebody said a while back, "I have no idea how that swing is going to translate into elite offense," or something like that. And it really never did. 

 

Star hype, solid player. Not at all a bust to me, just like Ben McDonald isn't. 



#650 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 08:16 PM

I don't remember who it was, but somebody said a while back, "I have no idea how that swing is going to translate into elite offense," or something like that. And it really never did.

Star hype, solid player. Not at all a bust to me, just like Ben McDonald isn't.

It was Sports Guy, and he got routinely blasted for it. That was one of the big sources of the feud between him and _____________ (insert poster here)... in this case, RShack. Shack with his typical - "so you're saying you know more than professional scouts" shtick. But Rob was spot on about Wieters and I'm pretty sure, the first to really be critical of Wieters.

#651 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 08:25 PM

I think the biggest problem people had with Shields was that it was an extremely hot take. Like within weeks of his callup. I think his biggest issue was Wieters had a "slow bat" but Im not even sure what that means to be honest. I remember the guy turning around Chapman.

#652 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 08:41 PM

It was Sports Guy, and he got routinely blasted for it. That was one of the big sources of the feud between him and _____________ (insert poster here)... in this case, RShack. Shack with his typical - "so you're saying you know more than professional scouts" shtick. But Rob was spot on about Wieters and I'm pretty sure, the first to really be critical of Wieters.


Wieters (and the subsequent responses from that horrible OFFNY) was the reason I ultimately left OH

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

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#653 BaltBird 24

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 12:22 AM

It was a fun future to think about with Matusz, Arrieta, Tillman, and Loewen dealing to Wieters as Jones and Markakis would be chasing down flyballs and hitting bombs.

Some of it worked out, most of it didn't.

#654 Mackus

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:24 AM

Matusz was the biggest disappointment of that group for me.  He should've been able to sleepwalk his way to being a decent 3rd starter and I think somewhere between Cole Hamels and Tom Glavine was possible.  No idea how someone with the stuff, repertoire, and polish that he had ended up as a LOOGY.


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#655 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:27 AM


Matusz was the biggest disappointment of that group for me. He should've been able to sleepwalk his way to being a decent 3rd starter and I think somewhere between Cole Hamels and Tom Glavine was possible. No idea how someone with the stuff, repertoire, and polish that he had ended up as a LOOGY.

Was good in the minors and had a relatively good start to his career in Baltimore. Baffling how quickly he turned into a LOOGY

#656 ivanbalt

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:31 AM

Matusz was the biggest disappointment of that group for me.  He should've been able to sleepwalk his way to being a decent 3rd starter and I think somewhere between Cole Hamels and Tom Glavine was possible.  No idea how someone with the stuff, repertoire, and polish that he had ended up as a LOOGY.


Great against David Ortiz and that's about it.


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#657 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:40 AM

Matusz just turned 34 BTW but was out of the league before he was 30.

#658 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:49 AM

I will say, and I've said it before...   Rob and I were at the first ML game of his.  I hadn't seen him in the Minors, just read the stats.  I'm no scout, but the first thing I said was he has a long swing.  The evaluators should have seen that as well when the hype was going crazy.   

 

 

It was Sports Guy, and he got routinely blasted for it. That was one of the big sources of the feud between him and _____________ (insert poster here)... in this case, RShack. Shack with his typical - "so you're saying you know more than professional scouts" shtick. But Rob was spot on about Wieters and I'm pretty sure, the first to really be critical of Wieters.


I think it was an obvious point for anyone that saw Wieters, and I'm sure Rob would've reached the same conclusion on his own. But I was there with him that night, and I said it first.  

As far as that being a source of the issues with him and Shack.  Maybe?  I remember Rob agreeing with Shack's takes on needing X amount of guys, and somewhat agreeing with Shack's take on the outs you're looking from starting pitchers.  One of the initial issues I remember them arguing about was the ideas of rebuilding. 

The main repetitive issue for years at OH, and later here was the next step of that.  Shack not believing in rebuilding. Rob believing.  Rob putting forth prospective trade ideas / roster building.  Shack dismissing as 'Playing GM.'   Rob annoyed being told what was kosher or not for him to write about. 


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#659 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:49 AM

Matusz was drafted 4th overall in '08. Former Orioles Tim Beckham and Pedro Alvarez were drafted 1st and 2nd respectively. 4 other first round picks in that draft have been in the organization. Jemile Weeks, Brett Wallace, Andrew Cashner, Daniel Schlereth.
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#660 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:54 AM


I think it was an obvious point for anyone that saw Wieters, and I'm sure Rob would've reached the same conclusion on his own. But I was there with him that night, and I said it first.  

As far as that being a source of the issues with him and Shack.  Maybe?  I remember Rob agreeing with Shack's takes on needing X amount of guys, and somewhat agreeing with Shack's take on the outs you're looking from starting pitchers.  One of the initial issues I remember them arguing about was the ideas of rebuilding. 

The main repetitive issue for years at OH, and later here was the next step of that.  Shack not believing in rebuilding. Rob believing.  Rob putting forth prospective trade ideas / roster building.  Shack dismissing as 'Playing GM.'   Rob annoyed being told what was kosher or not for him to write about. 

One of many sources, not THE source. My bad. 






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