60 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

RF isnt very deep at all. Heyward is pretty overrated, IMO. Bruce is better offensively, consistant 30+ bombs, and stays healthy. Yeah Bruce strikes out more, but the OPS is significantly higher. I agree more with rob that heyward would be no higher than 8th best RF.

[mweb08]

Wieters was pretty brutal with the bat last year and he's not a good pitch framer. You have to be expecting a bounce back to have him on the list. I am.

 
I was wondering how you had him that high after you said what you did about how much stock you put in pitch framing. BTW, with the pitch framing numbers being what they are, why is it that you put so much stock in them, relative to a lot of other SABR folks who are still quite unsure of it's validity as of yet?

Well I'm not sure that a lot of SABR people are unsure of it. It's also not the be all end all of my list and I'm not looking at the numbers as if they're exactly right.

[Russ]

Anyone have a link that discussed how they're calculating the pitch framing runs?

[mweb08]

RF isnt very deep at all. Heyward is pretty overrated, IMO. Bruce is better offensively, consistant 30+ bombs, and stays healthy. Yeah Bruce strikes out more, but the OPS is significantly higher. I agree more with rob that heyward would be no higher than 8th best RF.

 

Heyward has actually been slightly better the last two years than Bruce on a per plate appearance basis. Using wRC+ anyway, which is like OPS+, but based on wOBA, which is a better stat than OPS. Heyward is also one of the best defensive right fielders in the game and is a better baserunner than Bruce. Jay has durability and power in his corner, but Jason is easily a better player on a per game basis.

[mweb08]

Anyone have a link that discussed how they're calculating the pitch framing runs?

 

Here's something on BP from a few years ago: http://www.baseballp...articleid=15093

 

And this: http://www.statcorne...ngFramework.php

 

And here's a good Grantland piece on pitch framing: http://grantland.com...-molina-others/

[mweb08]

1B:

 

Me:

 

1. Cabrera

2. Votto

3. Goldschmidt

4. Davis

5. Mauer

6. Freeman

7. Fielder

8. Encarnacion

9. Belt

10. Pujols

 

Rob:

 

1. Cabrera

2. Votto

3. Goldschmidt

4. Mauer

5. Davis

6. Freeman

7. Belt

8. Fielder

9. Napoli

10. Pujols

 

Kenny: 1. Cabrera 2. Votto 3. Goldschmidt 4. Freeman 5. Mauer 6. Fielder 7. Davis 8. Encarnacion 9. Belt 10. Gonzalez 

 

Shred: 1. Cabrera 2. Votto 3. Goldschmidt 4. Gonzalez 5. Mauer 6. Napoli 7. Davis 8. Freeman 9. Fielder 10. Encarnacion

 

James: 1. Cabrera 2. Goldschmidt 3. Votto 4. Davis 5. Mauer 6. Freeman 7. Encarnacion 8. Gonzalez 9. Napoli 10. Hosmer

 

Sean Casey: 1.MCab 2. Votto 3. Goldschmidt 4. Freeman 5. Davis 6. Fielder 7. Gonzalez 8. Mauer 9. Pujols 10. Encarnacion

[You Play to Win the Game]

Anyone have a link that discussed how they're calculating the pitch framing runs?

 
Here's something on BP from a few years ago: http://www.baseballp...articleid=15093
 
And this: http://www.statcorne...ngFramework.php
 
And here's a good Grantland piece on pitch framing: http://grantland.com...-molina-others/

I just can't buy into something that says Wiet was that bad last year. I guess that makes me a little close minded but I'm not trusting of the pitch framing data yet. I think it's an ambitious task anyway, IMHO.

[mweb08]

Anyone have a link that discussed how they're calculating the pitch framing runs?

 
Here's something on BP from a few years ago: http://www.baseballp...articleid=15093
 
And this: http://www.statcorne...ngFramework.php
 
And here's a good Grantland piece on pitch framing: http://grantland.com...-molina-others/

I just can't buy into something that says Wiet was that bad last year. I guess that makes me a little close minded but I'm not trusting of the pitch framing data yet. I think it's an ambitious task anyway, IMHO.

Orioles fans on this board and at the foxhole have often questioned his pitch framing.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Orioles fans on this board and at the foxhole have often questioned his pitch framing.

Questioning and saying he cost us that many wins because of it are two different things though. I don't doubt that it's an area of opportunity for Wiet... I do question the exact quantification of said weakness though.

[mweb08]

Orioles fans on this board and at the foxhole have often questioned his pitch framing.

Questioning and saying he cost us that many wins because of it are two different things though. I don't doubt that it's an area of opportunity for Wiet... I do question the exact quantification of said weakness though.

That's fine and basically what I already said. I'm not looking at these numbers as if they're exactly right, but I am looking at them to give me an idea of how good each catcher is in this regard.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Orioles fans on this board and at the foxhole have often questioned his pitch framing.

Questioning and saying he cost us that many wins because of it are two different things though. I don't doubt that it's an area of opportunity for Wiet... I do question the exact quantification of said weakness though.

That's fine and basically what I already said. I'm not looking at these numbers as if they're exactly right, but I am looking at them to give me an idea of how good each catcher is in this regard.

Okay... That's fair enough. Just when you said you initially said you put a lot of stock in it I thought you meant more. My B.

[mweb08]

Okay... That's fair enough. Just when you said you initially said you put a lot of stock in it I thought you meant more. My B.

 

Meaning that Lucroy is considered one of the very best pitch framers in baseball, so that's going to move him up my list a fair amount because pitch framing is quite important for a catcher. It doesn't mean I'm going to look at the exact amount of runs a stat said he saved and add that into a WAR like stat.

[You Play to Win the Game]

That's fair.

[mweb08]

2B:

 

Me:

 

1. Cano

2. Kipnis

3. Pedroia

4. Zobrist

5. Utley

6. Hill

7. Kendrick

8. Infante

9. Walker

10. Murphy

 

Rob:

 

1. Cano

2. Pedroia

3. Zobrist

4. Kipnis

5. Utley

6. Kendrick

7. Kinsler

8. Phillips

9. Walker

10. Infante

 

Kenny: 1. Cano 2. Pedroia 3. Kipnis 4. Utley 5. Hill 6. Zobrist 7. Kendrick 8. Kinsler 9. Walker 10. Infante

 

James: 1. Cano 2. Pedroia 3. Zobrist 4. Kipnis 5. Utley 6. Phillips 7. Kinsler 8. Infante 9. Altuve 10 Kendrick

 

Shredder: 1. Cano 2. Pedroia 3. Zobrist 4. Kipnis 5. Utley 6. Kinsler 7. Kendrick 8. Walker 9. Hill 10. Scutaro

[Pedro Cerrano]

Hill over Kendrick is the single worst ranking error I've ever seen.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Hill over Kendrick is the single worst ranking error I've ever seen.

 

Which is a double your fancy given Weber and Kenny both had Hill higher.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Hill has a higher WAR duh.

 

But, yea, you're onto me

[mweb08]

Hill over Kendrick is the single worst ranking error I've ever seen.

 

Well if healthy, he's a very good bet to beat Kendrick in two of the Triple Crown categories and he has a fighting chance in the third.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Well if healthy, he's a very good bet to beat Kendrick in two of the Triple Crown categories and he has a fighting chance in the third.

 

Good zing.  I deserved that.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Anyone have a link that discussed how they're calculating the pitch framing runs?

 

Harry Pavlidis and Dan Brooks (Both BSL Radio guests), have some of the most recent information / research on Catcher Framing here: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22934