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Nelson Cruz


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#81 Mackus

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:48 AM

I could see the Os not offering the QO because they'd be afraid to spend the money. Sort of like the Pirates with A.J Burnett.

 

I just don't see it.  1/$15M would be perfectly reasonable for both of these guys, even preferable really.  We're not gonna shift Manny to SS coming off of another injury, so another year of Hardy would be nice without having to pony up for 3-4 years of a long term deal even if it's slightly cheaper than $15M per year.  Same for Cruz, we wouldn't want him for multiple years at $10M or more due to his age, but a 1/$15M deal for him wouldn't be a bad signing, maybe a couple million more than ideal, but still decent value.  Having lost the top 2 picks this year, I think they'll want at least the chance of those compensation picks.

 

The risk really isn't that high in offering both of these guys qualifying offers, IMO.


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#82 dude

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:41 AM

I just don't see it.  1/$15M would be perfectly reasonable for both of these guys, even preferable really.  We're not gonna shift Manny to SS coming off of another injury, so another year of Hardy would be nice without having to pony up for 3-4 years of a long term deal even if it's slightly cheaper than $15M per year.  Same for Cruz, we wouldn't want him for multiple years at $10M or more due to his age, but a 1/$15M deal for him wouldn't be a bad signing, maybe a couple million more than ideal, but still decent value.  Having lost the top 2 picks this year, I think they'll want at least the chance of those compensation picks.

 

The risk really isn't that high in offering both of these guys qualifying offers, IMO.

 

I get the way you are looking at it...and in fact....that's largely the way i look at it....

 

....but what is there about the Orioles that makes you think they look at it that way?

 

They want to fit these guys into the budget at 8M, not 15M.

 

They didn't want Cruz for 14M last year.....with zero market HE TOOK 8M instead of waiting like Drew and Morales did.  The cautionary tale for these type guys is that waiting until after the draft doesn't pay.

 

The demand for SSs next year is low (lack of need) and the supply is high (both FA and trade)....that's not a market to go looking for 3/36 with a QO tied to you....because you'll be the only one that costs a 1st.

 

Markakis is probably looking at a FA deal around 2/16.....if they offer him a QO, he takes it.

 

The Orioles aren't going big on Hardy....they'd probably like something in the 3/25 neighborhood....which may not be that unreasonable, given the market....but if you let him negotiate with 1/15 in the bag....then you probably are around 3/33 or 4/40.

 

MLBTR has their running FA Power Rankings.....Cruz is down to #10.  #1 Scherzer is getting a QO.  #2 Lester cannot get a QO. #3 Shields....yes.  #4 Hanley gets a QO from LAD. #5 I'd suggest SF is bolder and makes Sandoval a QO.

 

....but after #6 (V-Mart)......I think a lot of teams will question whether they want to get stuck on 1/15, given the other options out there. A good SEP could push Cruz back up the list (to #5) where a QO is likely (and he rejects it)....but I don't get the impression that the Orioles value the draft picks at the sma level as the financial risk.

 

If this were the RedSox or Yankees....it's an easy call.

If the market was thin....and big market team demand was out there....easy call (non-Oriole)

 

.....but is it more likely (MASN!) we're operating on a 92M or a 122M payroll next year?  That's just 2 QOs, not even 3.

 

There's lots of ways (trades, etc) to manage the end cost of the roster.....trading Wieters is one of the obvious ones.....trading Davis the other one......but the Orioles have been more in the management by non-tender or FA....rather than actively shaping their roster by trade.

 

Is there anything suggesting they have a different approach?  I'm only suggesting these guys aren't the compensation locks several (many?) others believe.  

 

We'll see....soon after the parade. :)



#83 Matt_P

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:36 PM

Markakis is probably looking at a FA deal around 2/16.....if they offer him a QO, he takes it.

 

The seven position players in my database that signed for about 2 and 16 since 2011 are:

 

Name               Amount                    Date

Marlon Byrd       $16,000,000.00    11/12/2013
Ryan Ludwick    $15,000,000.00    12/10/2012
Russell Martin    $17,000,000.00    11/30/2012
Melky Cabrera   $16,000,000.00    11/19/2012
Jason Kubel       $15,000,000.00    12/19/2011
Adam LaRoche  $16,000,000.00    01/04/2011
Juan Uribe         $15,000,000.00    12/14/2013

 

Martin is a catcher. Cabrera was coming off of a suspension. LaRoche and Kubel are probably the best comps. LaRoche was slightly better offensively but far less valuable defensively. Kubel was as good offensively and far worse defensively plus injury prone.

 

These guys got roughly 3 and 40.

 

Shane Victorino   $39,000,000.00    12/13/2012
Jimmy Rollins       $38,000,000.00    12/17/2011
Aramis Ramirez    $36,000,000.00    12/12/2011
Paul Konerko       $37,500,000.00    12/08/2010
Carlos Beltran      $45,000,000.00    12/19/2013

 

Victorino is probably the best comparable. Kakes and Victorino are about even with the bat but Victorino had better speed and defense.

 

The thing is that teams can negotiate with players before offering them a QO. If you offer Kakes 3 and 40 and he says no then you know he doesn't want to accept a QO. Teams know whether or not a guy will take a QO and that's why guys that are offered them reject them.



#84 dude

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:59 PM

I guess we'll see.



#85 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 05:21 PM

Great day for Cruz. After a quiet couple of months, he's been hot again here in September.



#86 dude

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 06:57 PM

Great day for Cruz. After a quiet couple of months, he's been hot again here in September.

 

....getting back to a big month would be excellent for the Orioles at a number of levels.



#87 Chris B

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:10 PM

Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal

Sources: #Orioles’ Nelson Cruz has changed agents, choosing Diego Bentz of Relativity Sports. Previously repped by Adam Katz of Wasserman.

 



#88 Mackus

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:15 PM

My opinion on resigning Cruz is very quickly switching from leading with my head to my heart.  With a comp pick attached, his price tag should remain reasonable enough where I'll really want the O's to resign him.  Ditto for Hardy.



#89 mweb08

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:31 PM

Can we now all agree that he's extremely likely to be offered a comp pick? Dude? With his very strong finish to the regular season and his huge ALDS, it should be a lock IMO. Also, the O's are bringing in some extra cash from the playoffs and deposits on 2015 plans, so that can't hurt.

#90 Mackus

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:55 PM

Can we now all agree that he's extremely likely to be offered a comp pick? Dude? With his very strong finish to the regular season and his huge ALDS, it should be a lock IMO. Also, the O's are bringing in some extra cash from the playoffs and deposits on 2015 plans, so that can't hurt.

 

While I certainly agree he's a lock for a comp pick, I think at this point dude has to stick to his guns and dig in his heels and other stubborn idioms!  :)


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#91 JeremyStrain

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 01:31 PM

My opinion on resigning Cruz is very quickly switching from leading with my head to my heart.  With a comp pick attached, his price tag should remain reasonable enough where I'll really want the O's to resign him.  Ditto for Hardy.


If he leaves what would you give VMart as a replacement DH?
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#92 mweb08

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 01:40 PM

If he leaves what would you give VMart as a replacement DH?

 

Well other than the loyalty aspect, wouldn't Martinez be preferable given equal contracts?

 

Nelson is a year and a half younger, so that's the main thing is in his favor. 



#93 Mackus

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

I'd prefer Cruz, the lack of a pick being the biggest reason.  I think they'll get similar deals, Cruz perhaps an extra year but a bit less annually.  I can't really see some other team giving up a contract for Cruz that we deem to expensive to match but somehow think whatever Martinez gets offered is worth matching plus giving up the 1st round pick.  I think their contracts will be quite close, so we'll greatly prefer to give Cruz the deal and hold onto the draft pick.



#94 JeremyStrain

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 02:58 PM

Well other than the loyalty aspect, wouldn't Martinez be preferable given equal contracts?

 

Nelson is a year and a half younger, so that's the main thing is in his favor. 

 

Just curious. I've been thinking about it a few months. I'd like Cruz, I think he's a good fit here, but if he does turn this into a monster deal we don't match, VMart would have to be a top option to replace him.


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#95 Mackus

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 03:33 PM

Just curious. I've been thinking about it a few months. I'd like Cruz, I think he's a good fit here, but if he does turn this into a monster deal we don't match, VMart would have to be a top option to replace him.

 

Martinez is likely gonna get just as much if not more than Cruz, though.  And he'd cost us a 1st round draft pick when Cruz doesn't. 

 

If they decide to let Cruz go for financial reasons, I can't imagine them turning to Martinez who will be a similar commitment and require compensation.



#96 mweb08

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 03:50 PM

I'd prefer Cruz, the lack of a pick being the biggest reason.  I think they'll get similar deals, Cruz perhaps an extra year but a bit less annually.  I can't really see some other team giving up a contract for Cruz that we deem to expensive to match but somehow think whatever Martinez gets offered is worth matching plus giving up the 1st round pick.  I think their contracts will be quite close, so we'll greatly prefer to give Cruz the deal and hold onto the draft pick.

 

Well at least they'd get a pick with Cruz going elsewhere so that helps.

 

Martinez is the better player IMO, but I'd be happy with bringing back Cruz on a reasonable deal.



#97 JeremyStrain

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 04:19 PM

Martinez is likely gonna get just as much if not more than Cruz, though.  And he'd cost us a 1st round draft pick when Cruz doesn't. 

 

If they decide to let Cruz go for financial reasons, I can't imagine them turning to Martinez who will be a similar commitment and require compensation.

 

I'm not saying they let him go for financial reasons...just for whatever reason. Maybe years, who knows. Just saying that if he leaves, who do you try to replace him with? Not who is going to be a one year bargain.

 

I think Hardy is a hairier choice than this is, and I'd love to see Cruz extend here, just wondering what happens if he leaves, what kind of player will we fill that hole with? Only so many players willing to sign and play DH, and not a whole lot of players that we could shuffle around (RF/1B/LF/SS maybe?).

 

There's also the interesting debate that if similar contracts, isn't Martinez a better fit than Cruz even? I guess a lot depends on all the other pending pieces and what holes we end up with.


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#98 Matt_P

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 01:44 PM

Billy Butler, Kendrys Morales or Michael Cuddyer. None should cost the pick, all should be one year options and will cost half of what Cruz does.

 

Depending on what happens with MASN we should have twenty million or so remaining after we offer arbitration to Wieters, Davis, Pearce, Flaherty, De Aza, Gonzo, Tillman, Hunter and Norris but before we try resigning Hardy, Kakes, Young, Cruz, Miller and Matusz.

 

That means we'll need an SS, RF and DH. Spending 15 million on Cruz or V-Mart doesn't work. Spending 5 to 10 million on one of those three guys listed above can fit. Unless the plan is for us to use Pearce in LF and a Lough/De Aza platoon in right. Or if the plan is to use Machado at SS, Flaherty at 3B and get a backup shortstop.



#99 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:50 AM

Camden Chat: Cruz fit right in with the 2014 Orioles

http://www.camdencha...iew-nelson-cruz



#100 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 09:02 AM

Baseball Prospectus: Hot Stove Scouting Report Nelson Cruz

http://www.baseballp...articleid=24954






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