1813 replies to this topic

[CantonJester]

Stop Weber, you’re just trying to get a reaction.

 

No. You see, I can tell he's intellectually honest in his replies. Sharpen up your poker face, kid. (o;

[You Play to Win the Game]

No. You see, I can tell he's intellectually honest in his replies. Sharpen up your poker face, kid. (o;

I literally quoted an article saying the same exact stuff, and it was the original point I tried to make. My mistake was assuming you were mature enough to handle it. It’s my communication style you don’t like. Toughen up, kid. Grow a pair.

[mweb08]

We're on the same page. It still doesn't change my mind about the frauds in the late 90s. However, it's also why I don't put anything past any modern day athlete.

How are they more of frauds then those that came before them? Because the science improved? Because they actually trained incredibly hard to maximize the science? Because the baseballs were more lively? Because the parks became more HR friendly?

[CantonJester]

How are they more of frauds then those that came before them? Because the science improved? Because they actually trained incredibly hard to maximize the science? Because the baseballs were more lively? Because the parks became more HR friendly?

 

You already asked that question and I answered it. They forced me to choose. 

 

I think I get what you've said here. For me, it was the clown show that Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa put on in front of Congress. Instead of just straight up owning what happened, and in turn pointing the fingers at MLB itself for allowing PEDs to fester (cuz the owners were profiting from it), they denied everything. It was that moment that made fans choose a side: reality or fantasy. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

How are they more of frauds then those that came before them? Because the science improved? Because they actually trained incredibly hard to maximize the science? Because the baseballs were more lively? Because the parks became more HR friendly?

According to him, it’s because they were actually forced to confront the accusations, unlike most other athletes, so therefore they are tainted.

Because you know, Tatis came totally clean when he got caught. So do they all. They’re all so damn honest about it. It was only Bonds, Sosa and Palmeiro who denied it.

So because of all that, we should celebrate Judge’s accomplishments this year because it’s all above board.

[CantonJester]

I literally quoted an article saying the same exact stuff, and it was the original point I tried to make. My mistake was assuming you were mature enough to handle it. It’s my communication style you don’t like. Toughen up, kid. Grow a pair.

 

Mature? What about the posts you made the other day were mature? Back off a bit. 

[mweb08]

You already asked that question and I answered it. They forced me to choose.

How were they more frauds on the field?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Mature? What about the posts you made the other day were mature? Back off a bit.

What about them weren’t? Relax, Jesus Christ man.

If I were as articulate and intelligent as Weber, I’d have articulated the way he did.

I’m going to do me, if you don’t like it, move on.

[mweb08]

What about them weren’t? Relax, Jesus Christ man.

If I were as articulate and intelligent as Weber, I’d have articulated the way he did.

I’m going to do me, if you don’t like it, move on.

Lol

You smart bro!

[CantonJester]

How were they more frauds on the field?

 

OK. I'll spell this out for you (really, for Ricker):

 

MLB had a comeuppance at that Senate hearing and those guys crapped the bed. They lied their faces off and insulted baseball fans everywhere when they did it. Had they told the truth, what were they going to do? Throw them in Senate Jail? No. The story would've grown and awareness would've been healthier. This isn't some "gotcha" moment here. I'm literally saying MLB had a steroid problem. HAS one. You're arguing that it existed before that? So what? That doesn't change my opinion that Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa didn't crap the bed on national TV. 

 

I get it. They fell on a sword. But that's not exactly noble. Is it? 

[CantonJester]

What about them weren’t? Relax, Jesus Christ man.

If I were as articulate and intelligent as Weber, I’d have articulated the way he did.

I’m going to do me, if you don’t like it, move on.

 

Smart. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[mweb08]

OK. I'll spell this out for you (really, for Ricker):

MLB had a comeuppance at that Senate hearing and those guys crapped the bed. They lied their faces off and insulted baseball fans everywhere when they did it. Had they told the truth, what were they going to do? Throw them in Senate Jail? No. The story would've grown and awareness would've been healthier. This isn't some "gotcha" moment here. I'm literally saying MLB had a steroid problem. HAS one. You're arguing that it existed before that? So what? That doesn't change my opinion that Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa didn't crap the bed on national TV.

I get it. They fell on a sword. But that's not exactly noble. Is it?

Yeah, that doesn't answer my question.

[CantonJester]

Yeah, that doesn't answer my question.

 

Probably because...

 

How were they more frauds on the field?

 

doesn't deserve a response?

 

Seriously, what?

[mweb08]

According to him, it’s because they were actually forced to confront the accusations, unlike most other athletes, so therefore they are tainted.

Because you know, Tatis came totally clean when he got caught. So do they all. They’re all so damn honest about it. It was only Bonds, Sosa and Palmeiro who denied it.

So because of all that, we should celebrate Judge’s accomplishments this year because it’s all above board.

And this is a smart post my articulate friend. The people I were referring to in the older history of baseball players seeking out an edge were by and large not challenged on their behavior. Furthermore, I think you're correct in that the vast majority would not have an honorable reaction to accusations of said behavior falling under the cheating umbrella.

[CantonJester]

Let me just interject and remind you I already answered your question.

 

 

 

In terms of validity of records, those who challenge that generally have been good with athletes that found and utilized whatever edge they could in a sport that encouraged such behaviour for its entire existence until the point where that edge became too much for them to cheer on for whatever reason.

 

 

I think I get what you've said here. For me, it was the clown show that Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa put on in front of Congress. Instead of just straight up owning what happened, and in turn pointing the fingers at MLB itself for allowing PEDs to fester (cuz the owners were profiting from it), they denied everything. It was that moment that made fans choose a side: reality or fantasy. 

 

So basically I never disagreed with you. Except that I'd have left Ricker on the mat where he belonged. (o;

[mweb08]

Probably because...


doesn't deserve a response?


Seriously, what?

I mean, not hard to understand, but ok.

It seems like Ricker was right. Take whatever edge you can? Cool. Have no one call you on that? Cool. Totally valid stats. Do the same but have people call you out in it and don't admit to it? Fraud.

[CantonJester]

I mean, not hard to understand, but ok.

It seems like Ricker was right. Take whatever edge you can? Cool. Have no one call you on that? Cool. Totally valid stats. Do the same but have people call you out in it and don't admit to it? Fraud.

 

No, it is hard to understand because you pointed out that discrepancy and I gave you my opinion about it. Ricker's not right here. No more than you or myself. I'm simply answering your question with my own experience. 

 

And yeah. Lying to Congress earns a backlash. Pictures at eleven.

 

eta: I gotta add: he was throwing whataboutism in my face the other day. Thanks for the laugh!

[mweb08]

No, it is hard to understand because you pointed out that discrepancy and I gave you my opinion about it. Ricker's not right here. No more than you or myself. I'm simply answering your question with my own experience.

And yeah. Lying to Congress earns a backlash. Pictures at eleven.

My follow up question cannot be answered with what you said and it is a very straight forward question. So answer the question or don't, but stop acting like your response is sufficient, because it's not.

And as much as you may hate to admit it, Ricker made a good point that these people that you're upset at were made to confront what they did while the vast majority of others were not. There's no good reason to assume that they would have been saints when their discretions were being challenged either.

Additionally, records are set on the field and how people act off the field does not change that (to be clear I'm talking about lying to Congress in this debate). It may change how we think of them as people or if they should make the Hall of Fame, but lying about something or murdering someone to go with the most extreme example doesn't change the legitimacy of the on field stats. So lying to Congress has no bearing on the legitimacy of one edge seeker's stats compared to another's. Like do the guys that we know took steroids get a pass because they weren't called before Congress?

[CantonJester]

Sure, that was BS, but it doesn't change the reality of the entire history of the sport being tainted by players finding what advantages they could. Many of those advantages are ignored or even laughed at (doctoring baseballs), while others are minimized (greenies). Meanwhile steroids somehow qualify for all those besides the laughing part unless they just can't help it while reading off Barry Bonds' stats. People largely ignore that steroids were prominent in MLB dating back to the 60's and that even Babe Ruth experimented with horse steroids. Those who know steroids were a thing in baseball before the "steroid era" generally minimize it, perhaps because it suits their argument or protects their glory years of baseball in their mind, or maybe because the steroids weren't actually as effective back then, probably in large part because the training wasn't as diligent and effective.

 

In case you need it spelled out further. The difference between all those years ago and the late 90s is the fact they were called out onto the stage and straight-up lied to our face about it. Maybe you're OK with that. I'm not, because it implies a level of complicity I'm not comfortable with. If you are, then you're full of crap because you likely weren't aware of any purported cheating then anyway. 

[CantonJester]

My follow up question cannot be answered with what you said and it is a very straight forward question. So answer the question or don't, but stop acting like your response is sufficient, because it's not.

And as much as you may hate to admit it, Ricker made a good point that these people that you're upset at were made to confront what they did while the vast majority of others were not. There's no good reason to assume that they would have been saints when their discretions were being challenged either.

Additionally, records are set on the field and how people act off the field does not change that (to be clear I'm talking about lying to Congress in this debate). It may change how we think of them as people or if they should make the Hall of Fame, but lying about something or murdering someone to go with the most extreme example doesn't change the legitimacy of the on field stats. So lying to Congress has no bearing on the legitimacy of one edge seeker's stats compared to another's. Like do the guys that we know took steroids get a pass because they weren't called before Congress?

 

Holy crap. We're talking about testimony of what they took to enhance their play. The off-the-field murders are a complete non-sequitur. 

 

Also - points re: red herring about Ricker raising a point about whether or not others from previous generations would've done the same thing. Who freakin cares?