169 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

Eli Manning is a no doubt hall of famer.

The arguments I see against Eli are the same I see for average baseball Hall of Famers. The Hall of Fame isn’t just for Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. It’s for guys like Craig Biggio and Don Sutton too.

Yeah. Maybe Biggio not a great argument but I get your point.

He could get in, I think the titles help. Especially given who they came against. While titles don’t matter in every case, look at some QBs that have one, I think if you have longevity and stats, titles put you over the top.

What I would hate to see is this open the gates for guys like Phil Rivers, Matt Stafford, guys with no big game success whatsoever, but a lot of garbage time stat cushioning.

He should probably wait his turn though. Definitely not first ballot.

[Mike in STL]

FWIW Eli was never a first team all-pro, and neither was John Elway. Elway was also lauded for his comeback/game winning ability. He had 31 comebacks and 40 GW drives. Eli had 27 and 37. And didn’t hardly play this year.

Difference is Eli hasn’t been good lately and Elway won his titles on his way out the door.

I’m not saying Eli is Elway. Just comparing some things. Experts think Elway is a top 100 player in the history of the game. I wouldn’t say that about Eli at all, but to say that about Elway is a joke.

There is a case for Eli somewhere though.

[mweb08]

Yeah. Maybe Biggio not a great argument but I get your point.

He could get in, I think the titles help. Especially given who they came against. While titles don’t matter in every case, look at some QBs that have one, I think if you have longevity and stats, titles put you over the top.

What I would hate to see is this open the gates for guys like Phil Rivers, Matt Stafford, guys with no big game success whatsoever, but a lot of garbage time stat cushioning.

He should probably wait his turn though. Definitely not first ballot.

I'm not sure how Manning's stats can be considered more legit than Rivers' stats, and Philip actually has the better stats.

You can put a bunch of weight on the titles and I'll disagree because I don't think those were Eli driven titles at all, but if you're going to argue that Eli's stats other than the team stat of championships, are HOF worthy, then you better be ok with opening up the flood gates IMO.

[DJ MC]

FWIW Eli was never a first team all-pro, and neither was John Elway. Elway was also lauded for his comeback/game winning ability. He had 31 comebacks and 40 GW drives. Eli had 27 and 37. And didn’t hardly play this year.

Difference is Eli hasn’t been good lately and Elway won his titles on his way out the door.

I’m not saying Eli is Elway. Just comparing some things. Experts think Elway is a top 100 player in the history of the game. I wouldn’t say that about Eli at all, but to say that about Elway is a joke.

There is a case for Eli somewhere though.

 

Elway led his teams to five Super Bowls, winning two. A lot more winning seasons and playoff appearances. Top-ten offenses in points and yards ten times (compared to five for the Eli Giants).

 

Elway had the more late-career success, but also had a lot more ALL-career success.

 

And damn you to hell for making me have to defend John Elway

[Mike in STL]

Elway led his teams to five Super Bowls, winning two. A lot more winning seasons and playoff appearances. Top-ten offenses in points and yards ten times (compared to five for the Eli Giants).

Elway had the more late-career success, but also had a lot more ALL-career success.

And damn you to hell for making me have to defend John Elway

.

Offenses changed a lot in Eli’s day. Also, I get that Elway is better. I’m just trying to draw some comparisons

Before this gets out of hand, I think Eli gets in. I wouldn’t necessarily vote for him. But there are arguments for him.

[Mike in STL]

I'm not sure how Manning's stats can be considered more legit than Rivers' stats, and Philip actually has the better stats.

You can put a bunch of weight on the titles and I'll disagree because I don't think those were Eli driven titles at all, but if you're going to argue that Eli's stats other than the team stat of championships, are HOF worthy, then you better be ok with opening up the flood gates IMO.

Well, I’m not looking for the flood gates to open. I could see if Eli gets in, when Rivers time comes, he’ll be stuck in the pool of guys like Brees, Brady, Rodgers whereas Eli might beat those guys there.

I’m not putting a ton of weight on titles. Just a little. And only in the cases of splitting hairs between others in the HOF conversation.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Couple thoughts... 

 

1) Generally agree Eli wasn't elite... 

 

2) Definitely agree his stats (all guys his era and on) have inflated numbers vs. those historically due to the changes in rules, and proliferation of passing attacks...

 

3) I think his durability, and being a legitimate upper 1/2 NFL starter for a long time does matter... being a 2x SB QB matters, beating the Pats twice matters...   

 

4) Not 1st ball, but ultimate HOFer makes sense to me... 

 

5) Re: Rivers having better numbers...  at-least some consideration has to be given to it haven been easier for Rivers to play 1/2 his games in San Diego, vs. Manning in Jersey (winds of the Meadowlands).

 

6) On talent, Elway is an inner circle guy at QB imo.

[DJ MC]

Here's a question: Is Eli Manning closer to John Elway, or Jim Plunkett?

 

All three were 1:1 picks who won two Super Bowls for teams that didn't draft them.

 

https://www.pro-foot.../P/PlunJi00.htm

[mweb08]

Couple thoughts...

1) Generally agree Eli wasn't elite...

2) Definitely agree his stats (all guys his era and on) have inflated numbers vs. those historically due to the changes in rules, and proliferation of passing attacks...

3) I think his durability, and being a legitimate upper 1/2 NFL starter for a long time does matter... being a 2x SB QB matters, beating the Pats twice matters...

4) Not 1st ball, but ultimate HOFer makes sense to me...

5) Re: Rivers having better numbers... at-least some consideration has to be given to it haven been easier for Rivers to play 1/2 his games in San Diego, vs. Manning in Jersey (winds of the Meadowlands).

6) On talent, Elway is an inner circle guy at QB imo.

San Diego is pretty breezy.

But sure, you can consider weather. One of the reasons I responded to Mike's comment was the garbage time remark, because I'm guessing that Eli's stats benefited more due to that considering the Chargers were the better regular season team.

Regarding beating the Pats twice, I mean we all watched those games and we know the primary reason why the Giants won those games. Their D line did a great job. Also give an assist in the first one to the most absurd catch ever. Going into those games, almost everyone thought the Giants offense would have to be better to win those games. I'm not saying he was bad, though to be clear.

There is something to getting to the Super Bowl of course, but he, nor the teams were special in those regular seasons, and he didn't exactly go on a Flacco esque run in either of those postseasons either.

[BSLChrisStoner]

San Diego is pretty breezy.

But sure, you can consider weather. One of the reasons I responded to Mike's comment was the garbage time remark, because I'm guessing that Eli's stats benefited more due to that considering the Chargers were the better regular season team.

Regarding beating the Pats twice, I mean we all watched those games and we know the primary reason why the Giants won those games. Their D line did a great job. Also give an assist in the first one to the most absurd catch ever. Going into those games, almost everyone thought the Giants offense would have to be better to win those games. I'm not saying he was bad, though to be clear.

There is something to getting to the Super Bowl of course, but he, nor the teams were special in those regular seasons, and he didn't exactly go on a Flacco esque run in either of those postseasons either.

I do like seeing your counter here, because at-least part of me agrees with you. 

I do think HOF should be for the truly elite. 

But of course Eli can look at his career numbers and someone could argue his career numbers are 'elite', but I think that ignores how the game changed. 

 

 

Must be crazy for Eli to be HOF ish, and like the 3rd best talent in his family.

[SportsGuy]

It’s not like Eli played poorly in the SB.

In the 2011 SB, he had a 75% completion%, 0 picks, a rating over 100 and almost 300 yards passing.

In 2007, he wasn’t as good but he was still good enough to win.

1 turnover in 2 SBs against one of the all time great teams and another very good NE team is pretty impressive.

In other words, while it was a team effort (as it always is), Eli didn’t lose them the game either.

In the 2 SB runs, he threw 15 TDs and threw only 2 picks.

[SportsGuy]

And btw, if you are going to bring up the SB wins, the rest of his playoff resume needs to be mentioned.

He only went 4 other times. Elite QBs generally find themselves in the playoffs a lot more than he did and he won zero other playoff games.

If he makes the HOF it will be because he beat NE twice. If he had beaten the Ravens and Steelers, I’m not sure the hype train is there.

But because he beat NE, that will be ultimately what pushes him over the top.

[ivanbalt]

Eli peaked early, but hasn't really been anything special since.  Since their last SB, the Giants had losing seasons in 5 of the last 7 that Eli was the primary starter.  It's not his fault that the Giants have been run so poorly, but that doesn't really seem like a HOF QB situation considering he's always had good to great receivers.

[SportsGuy]

And yes, his durability, consecutive games streak, etc...definitely matters.

[mweb08]

Bomani Jones
with eli, it’s simple. you ever heard anyone call him great? if not — and you haven’t — why are we even talking about him and the hall of fame?

https://twitter.com/...8369847308?s=19

[Mike in STL]

Bomani Jones
with eli, it’s simple. you ever heard anyone call him great? if not — and you haven’t — why are we even talking about him and the hall of fame?

https://twitter.com/...8369847308?s=19

There are a ton of players that would not be in any halls of fame then.

[mweb08]

There are a ton of players that would not be in any halls of fame then.

Some undeserving players would certainly be removed, but I don't think it would be a high percentage. Besides some horrible selections, the vast majority of baseball hall of famers were great IMO, at least for a stretch of time.

[mweb08]

Also, it seems like the NFL has the highest bar out of the major 3 pro hall of fame's (basketball of course mixes pro, college, and international).

[Mike in STL]

Also, it seems like the NFL has the highest bar out of the major 3 pro hall of fame's (basketball of course mixes pro, college, and international).

That’s true. There are some much more deserving guys waiting a turn in Canton.

[SportsGuy]

Class announced, headlined by Troy P.

https://www.espn.com...ected-hall-fame