304 replies to this topic

[BSLMikeLowe]

C'mon man, did you SEE that Sugar Bowl?

 

But since he's still scrubbing barnacles off boats in the harbor, he'd fit in perfectly with the program's emphasis on local recruiting.

[DJ MC]

But since he's still scrubbing barnacles off boats in the harbor, he'd fit in perfectly with the program's emphasis on local recruiting.

 

That's the thing about plankton; they tend to keep to themselves.

[bnickle]

Using your words from this thread:

There is a big difference between Top 10 classes and Top 30 classes. Besides, apples and oranges with  two different sports. In basketball an elite talent can make more of a difference than in football unless that football talent is a QB.

 

 

Still,  in basketball you see guys that can get top talent and still do nothing with it. First name that pops in my head is Matt Dougherty. Turg isn't Matt Dougherty, while Edsall IMO is the equivalent of Dougherty as a coach.

[bnickle]

Turgeon is obviously a better basketball coach than Edsall is a football coach, that can't be questioned.  Maryland is a much higher echelon basketball job than a football job, so it just naturally engenders better candidates.

 

I can't stand Edsall.  I do think he's done a good job recruiting, but I don't know how much is him and how much is Locksley and Stewart.

 

I don't think any of that trio are good actual coaches, though they can get good talent in, which is very important.  I don't know if a new regime would be able to bring in as good of talent, but maybe they could get more out of it.  I'd be willing to roll the dice at this point, though I agree with the arguments about Anderson.  I'm not a fan of his.

And the truth is, no matter how fair or unfair, this is how a lot of the alumni and students feel about Edsall right now. The apathy for the program is as low as it's been since the mid to late '90s.

 

 

Even with an 8-4 season this year he wasn't going to come close to winning many of these people back. He burned bridges with a lot of fans already.

[Oriole85]

There is a big difference between Top 10 classes and Top 30 classes. Besides, apples and oranges with  two different sports. In basketball an elite talent can make more of a difference than in football unless that football talent is a QB.

Basketball tends to have more competition, mid-majors have a more realistic of competing (Butler/Gonzaga). There's many more teams in D-1 in hoops (all those Catholic schools that don't field cfb teams) than FBS in cfb. Less separation among BCS/non-BCS in college basketball sort of like I said in my first point.

 

But again, Maryland is a basketball school, expectations are going to be higher. So saying they are on a level-playing field isn't fair.

[Oriole85]

And the truth is, no matter how fair or unfair, this is how a lot of the alumni and students feel about Edsall right now. The apathy for the program is as low as it's been since the mid to late '90s.

 

 

Even with an 8-4 season this year he wasn't going to come close to winning many of these people back. He burned bridges with a lot of fans already.

I don't think so, I believe the attendance was significantly than it is now.

[JeremyStrain]

Perception is a big problem. A lot of alumni, students and fans aren't big Edsall fans for whatever reason, and while in a lot of ways that shouldn't matter at all, those are the people buying tickets, and not buying tickets. If they don't pay and go to games, the school doesn't get the money it needs. It's one of those instances where hype actually means something. If he would have shrugged off the hype or perception and won in spite of things, people would probably come around, but he started with a handicap, and I just don't think it's one he'll every fully overcome, fair or not.

[Oriole85]

Perception is a big problem. A lot of alumni, students and fans aren't big Edsall fans for whatever reason, and while in a lot of ways that shouldn't matter at all, those are the people buying tickets, and not buying tickets. If they don't pay and go to games, the school doesn't get the money it needs. It's one of those instances where hype actually means something. If he would have shrugged off the hype or perception and won in spite of things, people would probably come around, but he started with a handicap, and I just don't think it's one he'll every fully overcome, fair or not.

The problem is you can't change coaches every few years because you don't like the guy. You're dealing with the limitations that is associated with Maryland football. You saw that when Kevin Anderson tried to hire someone with more of an NFL background. Not sure how Edsall could've shrugged off the hype, after they fired someone who seemed to be heading in the right direction. You think people would've been OK with "we just won 9 games, had the ACC COY(who was fired), and ACC FOY, but we're going to take a step back? Kevin Anderson clearly thought he could get someone better when he said the "good to great" comment.

 

People will come around if they are winning. Other than hard-core fans, you'll never see a program supported with a bad coach no matter how likable he is.

[JeremyStrain]

The problem is you can't change coaches every few years because you don't like the guy. You're dealing with the limitations that is associated with Maryland football. You saw that when Kevin Anderson tried to hire someone with more of an NFL background. Not sure how Edsall could've shrugged off the hype, after they fired someone who seemed to be heading in the right direction. You think people would've been OK with "we just won 9 games, had the ACC COY(who was fired), and ACC FOY, but we're going to take a step back? Kevin Anderson clearly thought he could get someone better when he said the "good to great" comment.

 

People will come around if they are winning. Other than hard-core fans, you'll never see a program supported with a bad coach no matter how likable he is.

 

I agree with that, but you have to separate logic from box office receipts unfortunately, and middling results and potential might work for more hard core sports fans, but a HUGE chunk of college attendance are more casual fans and alumni. If they aren't excited for the program, they aren't going to go, and something as trivial as "liking" the coach can play into it. It SHOULDN'T but it does.

 

The problem is it's going to take a couple seasons of winning for those people to come around, and even if he won out the rest of this season, how long can you let him go with the combination of lack of support  and middle of the pack numbers? Then you are starting over again in a couple years. It's not a great situation to be in for sure, but they've got to drag in those casual fans somehow and FAST.

[Oriole85]

I agree with that, but you have to separate logic from box office receipts unfortunately, and middling results and potential might work for more hard core sports fans, but a HUGE chunk of college attendance are more casual fans and alumni. If they aren't excited for the program, they aren't going to go, and something as trivial as "liking" the coach can play into it. It SHOULDN'T but it does.

 

The problem is it's going to take a couple seasons of winning for those people to come around, and even if he won out the rest of this season, how long can you let him go with the combination of lack of support  and middle of the pack numbers? Then you are starting over again in a couple years. It's not a great situation to be in for sure, but they've got to drag in those casual fans somehow and FAST.

So if Edsall was more likable, are they getting 42k instead of 40k fans a game? (just throwing out some approximate numbers).

 

Fridge was as likable as you get and he was fired because the program had gone stale.

 

The problem is if you fire Edsall now with how much you owe him and his assistants and Maryland's financial situation, you have to give the next guy even more leeway. And there's no guarantee he'll be more "likable" or better for that matter. For most Maryland fans, they can't remember a successful football period outside of Fridge's first few years, older fans can remember Bobby Ross.

[Oriole85]

I think next year might be make-or-break for Edsall, think he's back barring a complete disaster or some off-field scandal, where it makes it easier to fire him and you won't take as much of a financial hit.

[JeremyStrain]

So if Edsall was more likable, are they getting 42k instead of 40k fans a game? (just throwing out some approximate numbers).

 

Fridge was as likable as you get and he was fired because the program had gone stale.

 

The problem is if you fire Edsall now with how much you owe him and his assistants and Maryland's financial situation, you have to give the next guy even more leeway. And there's no guarantee he'll be more "likable" or better for that matter. For most Maryland fans, they can't remember a successful football period outside of Fridge's first few years, older fans can remember Bobby Ross.

 

No I think it would be much more than a 2k swing. I know at alumni events and groups there is a huge split of people that are fans of his and those that are not, and a lot of people haven't been going to games the past couple years because of it. I'd love to see the season ticket numbers for the last few seasons.

 

I also agree there, likability isn't the only factor, but he's also NOT winning and at least Fridge was doing that.

 

His staff is guaranteed very little money, there's a huge difference in the base salaries and the amount guaranteed, it's like 500k-600k or something guaranteed versus the 2.3m or so in total salaries. Don't know what Edsall's guaranteed vs non-guaranteed numbers are though.

 

He probably is back after this year, but that leash is getting shorter with each loss, and if I were MD, I'd attach KA right to that ship, but I worry that they won't.

[Oriole85]

No I think it would be much more than a 2k swing. I know at alumni events and groups there is a huge split of people that are fans of his and those that are not, and a lot of people haven't been going to games the past couple years because of it. I'd love to see the season ticket numbers for the last few seasons.

 

I also agree there, likability isn't the only factor, but he's also NOT winning and at least Fridge was doing that.

 

His staff is guaranteed very little money, there's a huge difference in the base salaries and the amount guaranteed, it's like 500k-600k or something guaranteed versus the 2.3m or so in total salaries. Don't know what Edsall's guaranteed vs non-guaranteed numbers are though.

 

He probably is back after this year, but that leash is getting shorter with each loss, and if I were MD, I'd attach KA right to that ship, but I worry that they won't.

Edsall's contract I'm pretty sure is 100% guaranteed. If it weren't there'd be a lot more conversation IMO. I thought his staff was more than the amount you're throwing out, but not as sure there.

 

When there were those Stanford rumors that were immediately shot down, I think it was apparent that KA's job was safe. Stanford is an upgrade at this point.

[JeremyStrain]

Edsall's contract I'm pretty sure is 100% guaranteed. If it weren't there'd be a lot more conversation IMO. I thought his staff was more than the amount you're throwing out, but not as sure there.

When there were those Stanford rumors that were immediately shot down, I think it was apparent that KA's job was safe. Stanford is an upgrade at this point.

Found Edsall's numbers, $2m guaranteed per year (6 years total) with hefty bonuses tied to attendance. He could earn up to like $250-500k per year more with bonuses.

Anderson's was a 5 year deal with a base of $401k per year and a bunch of bonuses tied to things like graduation rates, and donations received. After 5 years there are indefinite mutual yearly options.

[Oriole85]

Found Edsall's numbers, $2m guaranteed per year (6 years total) with hefty bonuses tied to attendance. He could earn up to like $250-500k per year more with bonuses.

Anderson's was a 5 year deal with a base of $401k per year and a bunch of bonuses tied to things like graduation rates, and donations received. After 5 years there are indefinite mutual yearly options.

The AD being like the GM will get multiple shots in most cases, I expect KA to outlast at Edsall.

[JeremyStrain]

The AD being like the GM will get multiple shots in most cases, I expect KA to outlast at Edsall.

 

Unfortunately, I agree...but I think he was the worse hire. With the way donations have plummeted though, I hope he's being examined as much as others. Things have just gone completely downhill since Loh got the job.

[Oriole85]

Unfortunately, I agree...but I think he was the worse hire. With the way donations have plummeted though, I hope he's being examined as much as others. Things have just gone completely downhill since Loh got the job.

Would you prefer Debbie Yow to him?

 

I think donations have plummeted not so much because of him but because of the success(or lack of) with football and men's basketball. Regardless of how the men's/women's lacrosse, men's soccer, or women's basketball do (I'm probably forgetting some successful Olympic sports), if those two sports aren't doing well, donations will naturally be down.

[DJ MC]

Would you prefer Debbie Yow to him?

 

If someone was complaining about Jim Duquette as the Orioles' GM, would you ask if they preferred Syd Thrift?

[JeremyStrain]

Would you prefer Debbie Yow to him?

 

I think donations have plummeted not so much because of him but because of the success(or lack of) with football and men's basketball. Regardless of how the men's/women's lacrosse, men's soccer, or women's basketball do (I'm probably forgetting some successful Olympic sports), if those two sports aren't doing well, donations will naturally be down.

 

Don't you dare say her name in my presence!

 

Yeah but ultimately, it's his job to make them successful, and he chose to focus more on graduation rates, and character (conveniently something tied to his major bonuses) than on-field product. He also was very my-way-or-the-highway and botched an interview with a high profile coach.

 

Donations will be down if he doesn't keep the boosters happy, that's part of his job (as unfair as that is).

[Oriole85]

Don't you dare say her name in my presence!

 

Yeah but ultimately, it's his job to make them successful, and he chose to focus more on graduation rates, and character (conveniently something tied to his major bonuses) than on-field product. He also was very my-way-or-the-highway and botched an interview with a high profile coach.

 

Donations will be down if he doesn't keep the boosters happy, that's part of his job (as unfair as that is).

I agree it's on him, but he deserves time to right the ship. And yeah when the on-field product isn't going so well, you are naturally going to focus on other positives. 

 

If you're talking about Leach which I think you are, I think Leach would've taken it. I think higher-ups got cold feet on the hire. JMO.

 

The other one less likely, I think you maybe talking about is Sean Miller. While I agree with you he may have botched it. Arizona is a better program than people give credit for -- look at all their success over the past 30 years. They're the 2nd most relevant program in the Pac-12