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#21 bnickle

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

Turgeon has not had a top 10 class yet.  Maybe the 2014 class will end up being there.  MD is ranked 3rd now (according to 24/7), but they are probably finished and there are still a ton of shoes left to drop in that class.  I would guess they end up in the 15-ish range, but that's just a guess.

 

I agree, as usual, with ZackKiesel.  Both programs have had a very similar trajectory to this point, with similar positives and similar negatives.  But I also agree with Birds of B-more, Turgeon's position will start to be a bit uncomfortable if the BB team does not make the tourney this year.

They haven't been comparable. Im not saying Turge has done a great job but he literally had no chance his first year with 6 scholarship players and he still had a winning record and was 8th of 12 ACC teams. Edsall went 2-10 and was in the basement of the ACC.

 

Last year,  Turg won 25 games and went to the semis of the NIT. Maybe without the injuries Edsall would have done the equivalent, but I doubt it.

 

 

The other thing, as mentioned, is Edsall has done nothing to revitalize the fanbase. As apathetic as the fanbase was by the end of the Fridge era I still think it was better than it is now.  Byrd is as empty as it's been in a long, long time.



#22 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

Turge has clearly been better than Edsall.

 

 

To this point, Turge has continued the mediocrity that was Gary Williams last 5 years. Edsall has clearly been a step down from the mediocre Fridge era.

Better as in missing the postseason and then making the NIT?

 

The NIT is basically the equivalent of a low level bowl game, which they would've likely done if they had a real QB last year. I really hate to blame injuries since every team has them, but they weren't even starting someone at the most important positon who was recruited to play college football at that position.


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#23 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

Something I've never understood is why Turgeon is hailed as the almighty savior to the men's basketball program, and Edsall is this horrible man set to ruin the football team. In his two years at Maryland, Mark Turgeon hasn't taken the team to the NCAA Tournament. He has gotten a lot of high-level recruits, and has lost a few players when he stepped foot on campus.

 

In his two years at Maryland, Randy Edsall hasn't taken the team to a bowl game. He's had a lot more injuries than Turgeon had comparatively, and has also gotten a lot of high-level recruits (Wes Brown, Stefon Diggs, Deon Long, William Likely, etc.) Edsall lost players when he came to campus, but there were also more players to leave, the team is bigger. His teams have shown improvement every year, just like Turgeon's. Turgeon also has trouble winning on the road. Combined through his first two years, his record in conference road games is 3-14.

 

Now, I believe Mark Turgeon is a very good head coach for this program, just like I believe Randy Edsall is a very good head football coach for this program. What I don't understand is how people give him a free pass, while they crucify Randy Edsall. 

Turgeon has done a better job from a PR perspective and the Fridgen/GW departures were different. You had Edsall openly blaming Fridgen for why they were so bad in 2011. The same issues aren't there between GW/Turgeon I believe. Edsall has done a better job lately at the PR game IMO.


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#24 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:18 PM

I'm pretty sure Mark Turgeon is under just as much pressure to get to the tournament this season as Edsall is a bowl game. If Turgeon can't do it in year 3, with the talent he himself recruited, you will hear calls for him to be fired if he doesn't get it done.

It's been there with Edsall since almost day 1, whereas Turgeon was universally embraced despite not being the top choice. I do agree with you that Turgeon will feel the heat if they don't make the tournament and even moreso if they go backwards. I'm pretty sure like you've said in the past, that his job is safe barring a disaster.


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#25 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:19 PM

Yea Edsall could have used a PR person his first year in College Park, but he's gotten better.  And if the damn team could stay healthy for once people would probably forget about that stuff.  Winning cures a lot of woes.


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#26 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:23 PM

They haven't been comparable. Im not saying Turge has done a great job but he literally had no chance his first year with 6 scholarship players and he still had a winning record and was 8th of 12 ACC teams. Edsall went 2-10 and was in the basement of the ACC.

 

Last year,  Turg won 25 games and went to the semis of the NIT. Maybe without the injuries Edsall would have done the equivalent, but I doubt it.

 

 

The other thing, as mentioned, is Edsall has done nothing to revitalize the fanbase. As apathetic as the fanbase was by the end of the Fridge era I still think it was better than it is now.  Byrd is as empty as it's been in a long, long time.

Peter commented last year how laughable it was that Turgeon got a 10k for each NIT game he won. I actually don't mind it now. But in a few years, there shouldn't be any bonus for making or advancing in this NITs.

 

In terms of crowd support, it's better than it was prior to Fridge and it's comparable to the end of the Fridgen era -- not much better or worse.

 

Also, one other point -- shouldn't Maryland basketball be held to a higher standard than Maryland football?


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#27 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

Turge is getting Top 10 classes. Edsall is getting Top 30 classes. Big difference.

 

 

I don't know what more to say. Besides the bad coaching, he's done absolutely nothing to revitalize the fanbase. People know a loser when they see one.

Weren't you arguing that recruiting doesn't matter if you can't coach? So shouldn't there be increased pressure for Turgeon to perform in this aspect since the talent is there (or getting there)?


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#28 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

Yea Edsall could have used a PR person his first year in College Park, but he's gotten better.  And if the damn team could stay healthy for once people would probably forget about that stuff.  Winning cures a lot of woes.

 

I think it was Chris that asked this question, and no one really answered. Obviously this program is utterly snakebit right now, and there's no certainty that will change. But at what point do you have to say that in spite of the difficult circumstances created by injuries, that losing is simply no longer acceptable?



#29 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:38 PM

I think it was Chris that asked this question, and no one really answered. Obviously this program is utterly snakebit right now, and there's no certainty that will change. But at what point do you have to say that in spite of the difficult circumstances created by injuries, that losing is simply no longer acceptable?

 

It all depends on the circumstances.  Like I said before, these last two years in College Park have been worse than any team I can remember in any sport, ever.  For something like that I'm willing to give a lot of leeway.  Sure, we will never know what the Terps' record might have been last year or this year but the fact is they were an aggregate 9-3 between the two years before the bad injuries started to hit -- that has to count for something.

 

These seasons aren't played in a vacuum.  If Edsall can finally manage to put a few healthy squads out there, I will be better able to properly evaluate his future prospects in College Park.


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

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"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

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#30 glenn__davis

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:42 PM

I think it was Chris that asked this question, and no one really answered. Obviously this program is utterly snakebit right now, and there's no certainty that will change. But at what point do you have to say that in spite of the difficult circumstances created by injuries, that losing is simply no longer acceptable?

 

I am not a believer in making changes simply for the sake of making changes, UNLESS you feel that the coach's message has gotten stale and is no longer being received (see Andy Reid and the Eagles).  Obviously that is far less of a concern in a college program when players are cycling through, and in any event I don't see any indication that this year's team has turned a deaf ear to the coaching staff.

 

Saying "we're losing, we have to change it" without looking at the circumstances is not wise, IMO.



#31 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:43 PM

These seasons aren't played in a vacuum.  If Edsall can finally manage to put a few healthy squads out there, I will be better able to properly evaluate his future prospects in College Park.

 

I'm saying what if that doesn't happen? Injuries are part of the game, and while MD has certainly dealt with more than their fair share recently, it's no guarantee that will change. So when do you stop giving that leeway? And I realize this is purely hypothetical, as it is extremely difficult right now to predict how the remainder of this season will play out. But worst-case scenario, they are simply too out-manned and over-matched at this point and lose out? What should happen?



#32 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:47 PM

I'm saying what if that doesn't happen? Injuries are part of the game, and while MD has certainly dealt with more than their fair share recently, it's no guarantee that will change. So when do you stop giving that leeway? And I realize this is purely hypothetical, as it is extremely difficult right now to predict how the remainder of this season will play out. But worst-case scenario, they are simply too out-manned an over-matched at this point and lose out? What should happen?

 

Well what I'm saying is these two years have been an abberration.  I don't expect the Terps, or any team for that matter, to face the type of injures we have in the future.

 

I guess the bottom line is, I'll be using the first year or two in the Big 10 to gauge.  I will say that if we go into the Big 10 next year relatively healthy and get our clocks cleaned, I may be in favor of a change.  I'm not expecting to beat the likes of OSU or Michigan but I'd like to at least hang with some of the lesser programs and maybe scoop up a few wins (Indiana, MSU, Rutgers).


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

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#33 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:51 PM

My general takes...

 

- What Edsall accomplished at UConn is more impressive than his W/L record...

- The injuries last year make the 2012 season impossible to evaluate...

- The 2013 team was capable of 9 wins....

- There is good starting skill position talent on both sides.... recruiting is improving... depth remains an issue..

- It is only part hyperbole to say I wish every member of the incoming class was Offensive Line.

- If this team falls apart - and that is possible (probably even likely) with the current injuries... '13 becomes harder to evaluate as well...

- The financial issues of the department have to be weighed...

- There is a large portion of the fan-base who is never going to like Edsall... and MD's program really can't afford to not have everyone on board...

 

If MD had finished around the Top 25, mid-tier bowl... improving recruiting, and moving to the Big Ten... the positive headlines would write themselves, and MD would be looked at as on the upswing...

If MD tanks here.... the primary negative which will continue is general apathy.

 

 

It's a big decision for KA..... but the bottom-line is that the financial issues of MD really prevent much of a discussion taking place. Edsall figures to get next year no matter what.



#34 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

Well what I'm saying is these two years have been an abberration.  I don't expect the Terps, or any team for that matter, to face the type of injures we have in the future.

 

I guess the bottom line is, I'll be using the first year or two in the Big 10 to gauge.  I will say that if we go into the Big 10 next year relatively healthy and get our clocks cleaned, I may be in favor of a change.  I'm not expecting to beat the likes of OSU or Michigan but I'd like to at least hang with some of the lesser programs and maybe scoop up a few wins (Indiana, MSU, Rutgers).

 

You might not expect it to continue, but there is no promise it won't. Whether you believe this is just a string of random bad luck, some sort of karmic punishment, or if there is an underlying cause for this rash of injuries, it shows no sign of abating. I suppose the first thing I'd do is try and dig to find out if there is an underlying reason this is happening and change that. But if there isn't one, and it isn't apparent to me that there is a reason for this, do you just continue on indefinitely with the status quo?



#35 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

I think it was Chris that asked this question, and no one really answered. Obviously this program is utterly snakebit right now, and there's no certainty that will change. But at what point do you have to say that in spite of the difficult circumstances created by injuries, that losing is simply no longer acceptable?

Great question, not in year 2, moreso in year 3 (right now), definitely by year 5. Patience is a lot thinner than it used to be. 30 years ago, Edsall would've been given atleast 5 years, no questions asked. Now it's closer to three, sometimes two, there was even a case last year where someone was fired after a single season.


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#36 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:08 PM

Great question, not in year 2, moreso in year 3 (right now), definitely by year 5. Patience is a lot thinner than it used to be. 30 years ago, Edsall would've been given atleast 5 years, no questions asked. Now it's closer to three, sometimes two, there was even a case last year where someone was fired after a single season.

 

I saw a tweet from one of the national writers that 10 of the 26 coaches hired after the 2010 season are no longer with that school. I forget how many, but several did leave on their own for other jobs, but some were fired as well. But it does prove your point that the days of the 5-Year-Plan are long gone.

 

As for Edsall, I think the only scenario in which you fire him after this season is not only losing the remaining games, but as glenn__davis suggests the players also completely tune him out and don't even try anymore. And even then the finances may not allow for that. But it's a double-edged sword with the finances. Considering the poor attendance and suite sales, you also have to ask how long the school can actually afford to maintain status quo if the losing doesn't turn around very soon.



#37 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:20 PM

I saw a tweet from one of the national writers that 10 of the 26 coaches hired after the 2010 season are no longer with that school. I forget how many, but several did leave on their own for other jobs, but some were fired as well. But it does prove your point that the days of the 5-Year-Plan are long gone.

 

As for Edsall, I think the only scenario in which you fire him after this season is not only losing the remaining games, but as glenn__davis suggests the players also completely tune him out and don't even try anymore. And even then the finances may not allow for that. But it's a double-edged sword with the finances. Considering the poor attendance and suite sales, you also have to ask how long the school can actually afford to maintain status quo if the losing doesn't turn around very soon.


I think this, and the general apathy would be the primary reasons to make a move if KA was so inclined.

If MD made a move... who would be on the list? Would Stewart and Locksley (probably not) be retained? What existing players would depart? What committed players would bolt?

 

All pretty big questions.



#38 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:34 PM


I think this, and the general apathy would be the primary reasons to make a move if KA was so inclined.

If MD made a move... who would be on the list? Would Stewart and Locksley (probably not) be retained? What existing players would depart? What committed players would bolt?

 

All pretty big questions.

 

That's the other side of the equation, who can you realistically get that will both energize the fan base and get immediate, or close to it, results on the field? I really don't know.



#39 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

I saw a tweet from one of the national writers that 10 of the 26 coaches hired after the 2010 season are no longer with that school. I forget how many, but several did leave on their own for other jobs, but some were fired as well. But it does prove your point that the days of the 5-Year-Plan are long gone.

 

As for Edsall, I think the only scenario in which you fire him after this season is not only losing the remaining games, but as glenn__davis suggests the players also completely tune him out and don't even try anymore. And even then the finances may not allow for that. But it's a double-edged sword with the finances. Considering the poor attendance and suite sales, you also have to ask how long the school can actually afford to maintain status quo if the losing doesn't turn around very soon.

When KA makes the "good to great" comment, coming off a (most-likely) over-achieving year, the casual fan even moreso expects close to immediate results. Instead they got 2-10, last years injury plagued slide, and now likely this years injury plagued slide.

 

Edsall would've gotten more leeway had he been hired off of Fridge's 2-10 year IMO.

 

Agree on your assessment with the finances, need $ to make $. Edsall does still have another 3 years guaranteed I believe after this one.


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#40 Oriole85

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:40 PM


I think this, and the general apathy would be the primary reasons to make a move if KA was so inclined.

If MD made a move... who would be on the list? Would Stewart and Locksley (probably not) be retained? What existing players would depart? What committed players would bolt?

 

All pretty big questions.

Additional finances, a lot of the assistants have multi-year deals I believes, so you'd have to buy them out in addition to Edsall. It depends on what side of the ball the new coach would come from, they'd more likely want their own guy on the other side.

 

Yes, some existing/recruited players would depart they always do. Even though they don't technically sign up to play for a coach, in a lot of cases they do.

 

It be a big black mark on KA, as one of his two critical hires since coming here didn't work out. That's one of the reasons, I think KA will give him another year at minimum barring a complete disaster. If it would've been Yow's hire, it would've been a lot easier to fire him.


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