HOF
Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:31 PM
Well I think it would have been difficult for him to crack the top 6 for me on this list even without the injuries. His numbers and defense slipped before he started missing a lot of games.
Fair enough.. Great choices by both of you, really fun stuff.
HOF
Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:37 PM
Fair enough.. Great choices by both of you, really fun stuff.
Thanks Seth! Even though you didn't listen. 
Do you think Griffey was the best player of the 90's?
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:06 AM
Branden said this in the game thread:
This is gonna be funny when Webber tries to use advanced football stats and Barry Sanders or Elway end up off his list.
Well the advanced stats, heck the regular stats don't love Elway that much.
I didn't really get to watch Elway much during his prime, at least not that intelligently. Can anyone tell me why the stats are totally off-base with him? Now, I generally know what people say about Elway being great and it's not like I didn't see him at all, but I'm trying to get a better understanding of the disconnect between the stats and the reputation.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:17 AM
Branden said this in the game thread:
Well the advanced stats, heck the regular stats don't love Elway that much.
I didn't really get to watch Elway much during his prime, at least not that intelligently. Can anyone tell me why the stats are totally off-base with him? Now, I generally know what people say about Elway being great and it's not like I didn't see him at all, but I'm trying to get a better understanding of the disconnect between the stats and the reputation.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:21 AM
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:43 AM
I just listed 20 guys I feel should be on the list and Elway and Marino didn't make it....guess I can't have as many, or maybe any, Olineman.
Well I don't know what other QB's you have in that 20, but I don't think there has to be a certain amount of QB's on this list. This is the best players list, not the most valuable. I'm not sure that the 6th or so best QB should automatically make it over the 1st or second best offensive lineman or whatever.
Moderator
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:45 AM
I think it's going to be harder doing football because you don't have the equalization like you do in baseball, where all of them either hit in a lineup or pitch. In football there are so many different ways each position contributes. I was looking at Mike's rough list last night and trying to think of my own and weighing OL against QB etc started to get tough. How much do SB wins factor in etc.
Going to be a lot more separation on these lists I think.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:47 AM
Yep..and since football is such a team game, it's easy to say player x wouldn't be good without player y.I think it's going to be harder doing football because you don't have the equalization like you do in baseball, where all of them either hit in a lineup or pitch. In football there are so many different ways each position contributes. I was looking at Mike's rough list last night and trying to think of my own and weighing OL against QB etc started to get tough. How much do SB wins factor in etc.
Going to be a lot more separation on these lists I think.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:49 AM
I think it's going to be harder doing football because you don't have the equalization like you do in baseball, where all of them either hit in a lineup or pitch. In football there are so many different ways each position contributes. I was looking at Mike's rough list last night and trying to think of my own and weighing OL against QB etc started to get tough. How much do SB wins factor in etc.
Going to be a lot more separation on these lists I think.
Yeah, it's really tough!
SB performances/wins matter more for QB's but they have some weight for other players too.
And then how do we factor in Reggie White doing a LeBron while James was a kid? 
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:51 AM
Yep..and since football is such a team game, it's easy to say player x wouldn't be good without player y.
Good example is Rice and Montana, who are easily in my top 5.
How good is Emmitt without that great line? That's what makes it hard.
Spoiler alert!
Yeah, you have to consider supporting cast, especially with offensive skill players, but even with some defensive players.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:53 AM
Spoiler alert!
Yeah, you have to consider supporting cast, especially with offensive skill players, but even with some defensive players.
Moderator
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:54 AM
Yeah, it's really tough!
SB performances/wins matter more for QB's but they have some weight for other players too.
And then how do we factor in Reggie White doing a LeBron while James was a kid?
Reggie broke my heart when he went to GB instead of WAS.
Moderator
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:56 AM
Spoiler alert!
Yeah, you have to consider supporting cast, especially with offensive skill players, but even with some defensive players.
Yeah I mean, maybe you need to do a top 5 or 10 at each position first, then take that list and try to make a top overall, but it was hurting my head trying to figure out well this guy had this guy, and this guy had these 5 guys, but this guy had nobody.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:58 AM
Right...and it all comes back to the idea that they ALL need a good supporting cast to be great....well except Barry Sanders.
Well not nearly as much for offensive lineman and players in the secondary. It's not super important for some of the other defenders either and some other guys that deserve consideration didn't often have great supporting casts.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:00 PM
Yeah I mean, maybe you need to do a top 5 or 10 at each position first, then take that list and try to make a top overall, but it was hurting my head trying to figure out well this guy had this guy, and this guy had these 5 guys, but this guy had nobody.
That's what I did. The quantity varied by position, though.
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:29 PM
Going back to the quarterbacks, there are 7 that a person could reasonably make a case for being the best of the bunch, and therefore in the top 5 players of this time, possibly even #1. However, if someone else has that QB in the 5-7 range, they may barely make the list or not be on it at all.
That's something that can't happen with baseball or basketball.
Moderator
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:34 PM
Going back to the quarterbacks, there are 7 that a person could reasonably make a case for being the best of the bunch, and therefore in the top 5 players of this time, possibly even #1. However, if someone else has that QB in the 5-7 range, they may barely make the list or not be on it at all.
That's something that can't happen with baseball or basketball.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I mean you've got Marino, Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, Manning, Brees, Manning, Brady, Aikman, Jim Kelly, Phil Simms, Boomer, Warner etc. (obviously the talent level has dropped by those last 4-5 on my list, but just trying to show how many people could get worked into the bottom of a conversation.)
HOF
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:37 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I mean you've got Marino, Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, Manning, Brees, Manning, Brady, Aikman, Jim Kelly, Phil Simms, Boomer, Warner etc. (obviously the talent level has dropped by those last 4-5 on my list, but just trying to show how many people could get worked into the bottom of a conversation.)
Yep, and I think Big Ben and Rodgers can be mixed in that list too. Warren Moon too.
Moderator
Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:43 PM
Yep, and I think Big Ben and Rodgers can be mixed in that list too. Warren Moon too.
Oh yeah, missed them. Started to space out towards the end. And that's JUST QB. Can you put some team's entire OL as a whole on the list? I mean like the 91 Skins OL? Or DAL in like 95? Giants in 86?
It's going to be crazy narrowing down to an overall top 20.
Banned
Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:30 PM
If I was ever going to get on twitter it would be to somehow link this podcast if Elway doesn't make the top 20 players since '80 on both lists.
Talk about getting publicity. If I could get that out to enough people we'll have a ton of people calling Rob and Mike idiots. Any publicity is good publicity guys.
BTW...first thing I told Mike yesterday is that Elway is overrated considering some consider him a top 3 QB of all time. That said, he's undoubtedly one of the top 20 players since '80.
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