538 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Tell me why he's so much better than the stats suggest and why he's definitely top 20.

 

You have him as the 5th best QB of this time so that makes him not a no doubter imo, certainly not top 10 I'd assume. And how far ahead of Favre and Marino do you have him?

 

Anyway, yeah, some would say not having Elway in the top 20 would be stupid. Some would say the same about Marino, who you have as your 7th QB, which makes him very borderline for top 20 as I think it's difficult to limit the list to 13 non QB's.

 

That's what makes the NFL so more difficult than the other sports as there is not nearly as much consensus on guys. 

[bnickle]

1. He made the most SB appearances as a starting QB in the era with 5. Tied with Brady.

 

 

2. He just never had great offensive talent around him for his first 3 SB runs. He did so much of that himself until the '90s and especially later '90s when Shannon, TD, Rod Smith were there with him.

 

3.14 playoff wins trail only Montana and Brady. Playoff win % much better than Marino, Young, Peyton, Favre, Kelly.

 

 

I think this is a good test to try and balance out that pure stats vs being a winner debate that you were talking about in a post a few weeks ago. We know Qbs often will put up empty numbers or inflated numbers . Systems are made for some Qbs to put up better pure numbers than others. Elway never was in a great offensive system for most of his career and like i said, didn't have a lot of offensive talent around him for a long time, but he still found a way to get the job done way more often than he didn't.

 

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[mweb08]

1. He made the most SB appearances as a starting QB in the era with 5. Tied with Brady.

 

 

2. He just never had great offensive talent around him for his first 3 SB runs. He did so much of that himself until the '90s and especially later '90s when Shannon, TD, Rod Smith were there with him.

 

3.14 playoff wins trail only Montana and Brady. Playoff win % much better than Marino, Young, Peyton, Favre, Kelly.

 

 

I think this is a good test to try and balance out that pure stats vs being a winner debate that you were talking about in a post a few weeks ago. We know Qbs often will put up empty numbers or inflated numbers . Systems are made for some Qbs to put up better pure numbers than others. Elway never was in a great offensive system for most of his career and like i said, didn't have a lot of offensive talent around him for a long time, but he still found a way to get the job done way more often than he didn't.

 

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I don't think the winner argument is that strong for him vs a lot of the other QB's that are to be considered. I mean, it's not like they don't have great winning resumes too other than Marino.

 

Elway also was atrocious in 2 of their SB loses so that should be considered. The Broncos D was #1 ranked in '89 too (not so good in the SB).

 

As far as his SB wins, that was a really really good team other than the QB position, which is fine, but I don't think he deserves as much credit for winning that title as he would have during his prime. Oh, and the Broncos went 4-0 with Bubby Brister that last year, and Bubby actually had a little better stats.  

[Pedro Cerrano]

I echo other folks that say NFL will be the hardest to rank. Especially because of the various positions. I'd probably have Montana and Rice 1 and 2 and neither might be in the top 10 without the other.

[Oriole85]

It's not easy ranking the best baseball players of my lifetime.

 

Maddux vs Randy Johnson vs Pedro is tough for me. How do you weigh peak vs career value? Does playing pretty well for a lot of extra games heavily affect how one is rated?

 

How does a great reliever get mixed in with the starters and then position players?

 

How do I rate incredible offensive players who sucked at defense (Thomas, Manny, MCab, Jeter, Piazza)?

 

How much do I consider defensive numbers when they're far from perfect?

 

How much does postseason play matter?

 

I've come up with a preliminary top 20, but I could easily change quite a few things.

Just came across this, I missed it while I was away. Some thoughts...

 

I'd say career as a whole is better than peak performance. Unless you're the Marlins, you want longevity.

 

I'd have a hard time putting a great reliever in the top 20 are so. Even with higher leverage innings, it's much easier to get three outs than pitcher 6-7 dominant innings. I don't discount someone like Rivera entirely, it's just harder for me to give such a player a high # on the list.

 

Obviously offense comes first, maybe defense should be weighted a 1/4 of the value, with offense being 3/4. This differs from player-to-player, a bad first basemen or left fielder isn't going to be the same burden a bad shortstop is.

 

Postseason play should definitely be a big consideration. Were a championship-drive society. To me, it's the ultimate tiebreaker when deciding between two players with similar stats.

[Oriole85]

The hardest guys to rank will be guys like Durant, Irving, Rose, Westbrook, etc...the young superstars who MIGHT accomplish a lot down the line but haven't yet.

I think for that type of thing, you can't project future success. For example, while I don't think LeBron will ever be as good as Michael Jordan was, I do think he'll rise up the lists with his play. But at this point, I can only take into consideration what he has done thus far.

[Oriole85]

It doesn't matter for baseball, but Rob and I haven't discussed if we'd factor in college careers at all. Tebow is arguably the best college player of our lifetime.

If you're comparing careers of all sports -- I'd stick with the pros. Can you compare players who had a great pro/college career like Bill Walton but than not take into consideration what baseball players did?

 

In terms of all individual sports, I'd have no problem with combining the two. However, I'm probably just sticking to pro careers.

[Mike in STL]

1. Jerry Rice - No doubt. Some of his records may never be broken

2. Joe Montana - There has to be something said for playoff performance. Did it in KC too with weaker receivers.

3. Barry Sanders - Did it on some terrible teams.

4. Brett Favre - All the records, for now, decent playoff record, and granted just the one SB win, but talent was much better in the NFC in his day.

5. Reggie White - Had more sacks than games played as an Eagle. 

6. Emmitt Smith - Great O-Line or not, he's still the all time leader.

7. Ray Lewis - Best at his position, right?

8. Lawrence Taylor - Best at his position, right?

9. Anthony Munoz - Best at his position, right?

10. Tom Brady - If they didn't get caught cheating, he'd be higher. Hasn't won a SB without cheating.

11. Peyton Manning - Playoff performance has to matter, which is why he is this far down.

12. Ronnie Lott - All pro at three different positions. 

13. Mike Singletary - #2 MLB behind Lewis

14. Bruce Smith - #2 DE behind White

15. Bruce Matthews - 14 pro bowls, guard and center. Was footballs Iron Man before Favre.

16. Ed Reed - Love the guy, but Ronnie Lott did more on the field as far as tackling goes.

17. Deion Sanders - Occasionally played both ways, in addition to his DB success.

18. Darrell Green - Often forgotten about, but one of the best, and was the fastest guy for a long time.

19. Rod Woodson - Pro Bowler at three positions.

20. Ladanian Tomlinson - If he didn't tail off so fast he might have broken all the records. In his prime he was the best.

 

I don't think anyone currently in their prime should make the list (Peterson, Megatron) because if their careers ended today would they be on it. I also didn't make supporting cast a big deal because things like that are out of a players control. You can't discount Emmitt Smith because he had a great line. If thats the case than you have to discount Tom Brady and Peyton Manning too, since they have had the best O-Lines of the last decade. I think the best players at their positions have to have made it, but I didn't put a TE in because the best is Tony Gonzalez, but I also said that playoff performance matters. He has exactly one playoff win. 

 

QB's will be the big topic of debate. We talked at the bar about seven being in the top 20. I think four is enough. Playoff performance matters. Sorry Dan Marino. John Elway was awful in the Super Bowls he made in the early part of his career, and if the Browns didn't choke so bad, maybe he doesn't make two of those. It took Terrell Davis for him to finally get a ring. Steve Young just didn't play long enough as a starter IMO. But if this was a top 25 list, then these three would fit in the next five slots somewhere, along with Randy Moss, and maybe Shannon Sharpe.

[SportsGuy]

1. Jerry Rice - No doubt. Some of his records may never be broken

2. Joe Montana - There has to be something said for playoff performance. Did it in KC too with weaker receivers.

3. Barry Sanders - Did it on some terrible teams.

4. Brett Favre - All the records, for now, decent playoff record, and granted just the one SB win, but talent was much better in the NFC in his day.

5. Reggie White - Had more sacks than games played as an Eagle. 

6. Emmitt Smith - Great O-Line or not, he's still the all time leader.

7. Ray Lewis - Best at his position, right?

8. Lawrence Taylor - Best at his position, right?

9. Anthony Munoz - Best at his position, right?

10. Tom Brady - If they didn't get caught cheating, he'd be higher. Hasn't won a SB without cheating.

11. Peyton Manning - Playoff performance has to matter, which is why he is this far down.

12. Ronnie Lott - All pro at three different positions. 

13. Mike Singletary - #2 MLB behind Lewis

14. Bruce Smith - #2 DE behind White

15. Bruce Matthews - 14 pro bowls, guard and center. Was footballs Iron Man before Favre.

16. Ed Reed - Love the guy, but Ronnie Lott did more on the field as far as tackling goes.

17. Deion Sanders - Occasionally played both ways, in addition to his DB success.

18. Darrell Green - Often forgotten about, but one of the best, and was the fastest guy for a long time.

19. Rod Woodson - Pro Bowler at three positions.

20. Ladanian Tomlinson - If he didn't tail off so fast he might have broken all the records. In his prime he was the best.

 

I don't think anyone currently in their prime should make the list (Peterson, Megatron) because if their careers ended today would they be on it. I also didn't make supporting cast a big deal because things like that are out of a players control. You can't discount Emmitt Smith because he had a great line. If thats the case than you have to discount Tom Brady and Peyton Manning too, since they have had the best O-Lines of the last decade. I think the best players at their positions have to have made it, but I didn't put a TE in because the best is Tony Gonzalez, but I also said that playoff performance matters. He has exactly one playoff win. 

 

QB's will be the big topic of debate. We talked at the bar about seven being in the top 20. I think four is enough. Playoff performance matters. Sorry Dan Marino. John Elway was awful in the Super Bowls he made in the early part of his career, and if the Browns didn't choke so bad, maybe he doesn't make two of those. It took Terrell Davis for him to finally get a ring. Steve Young just didn't play long enough as a starter IMO. But if this was a top 25 list, then these three would fit in the next five slots somewhere, along with Randy Moss, and maybe Shannon Sharpe.

A lot of good names but my list differs a lot from yours, especially 11-20.

 

Very tough exercise.

[bnickle]

Sorry Mike. Favre Top 5 is insane. I wouldn't even have him top 10. Maybe not even top 15.

[KWebz]

1. Jerry Rice - No doubt. Some of his records may never be broken

2. Joe Montana - There has to be something said for playoff performance. Did it in KC too with weaker receivers.

3. Barry Sanders - Did it on some terrible teams.

4. Brett Favre - All the records, for now, decent playoff record, and granted just the one SB win, but talent was much better in the NFC in his day.

5. Reggie White - Had more sacks than games played as an Eagle. 

6. Emmitt Smith - Great O-Line or not, he's still the all time leader.

7. Ray Lewis - Best at his position, right?

8. Lawrence Taylor - Best at his position, right?

9. Anthony Munoz - Best at his position, right?

10. Tom Brady - If they didn't get caught cheating, he'd be higher. Hasn't won a SB without cheating.

11. Peyton Manning - Playoff performance has to matter, which is why he is this far down.

12. Ronnie Lott - All pro at three different positions. 

13. Mike Singletary - #2 MLB behind Lewis

14. Bruce Smith - #2 DE behind White

15. Bruce Matthews - 14 pro bowls, guard and center. Was footballs Iron Man before Favre.

16. Ed Reed - Love the guy, but Ronnie Lott did more on the field as far as tackling goes.

17. Deion Sanders - Occasionally played both ways, in addition to his DB success.

18. Darrell Green - Often forgotten about, but one of the best, and was the fastest guy for a long time.

19. Rod Woodson - Pro Bowler at three positions.

20. Ladanian Tomlinson - If he didn't tail off so fast he might have broken all the records. In his prime he was the best.

 

I don't think anyone currently in their prime should make the list (Peterson, Megatron) because if their careers ended today would they be on it. I also didn't make supporting cast a big deal because things like that are out of a players control. You can't discount Emmitt Smith because he had a great line. If thats the case than you have to discount Tom Brady and Peyton Manning too, since they have had the best O-Lines of the last decade. I think the best players at their positions have to have made it, but I didn't put a TE in because the best is Tony Gonzalez, but I also said that playoff performance matters. He has exactly one playoff win.

 

QB's will be the big topic of debate. We talked at the bar about seven being in the top 20. I think four is enough. Playoff performance matters. Sorry Dan Marino. John Elway was awful in the Super Bowls he made in the early part of his career, and if the Browns didn't choke so bad, maybe he doesn't make two of those. It took Terrell Davis for him to finally get a ring. Steve Young just didn't play long enough as a starter IMO. But if this was a top 25 list, then these three would fit in the next five slots somewhere, along with Randy Moss, and maybe Shannon Sharpe.

If this is the only argument for leaving Tony Gonzalez off the list, its not entirely fair. You can make the argument that post season performance should weigh heavily in basketball because the amount of difference one star player could make. Football being so team oriented, I don't think you can fault him for being on teams that didn't win in the playoffs. He's still far and away the best tight end in this time period. Also he was super durable throughout his career.

[You Play to Win the Game]

If this is the only argument for leaving Tony Gonzalez off the list, its not entirely fair. You can make the argument that post season performance should weigh heavily in basketball because the amount of difference one star player could make. Football being so team oriented, I don't think you can fault him for being on teams that didn't win in the playoffs. He's still far and away the best tight end in this time period. Also he was super durable throughout his career.

 

Agreed completely, great post. 

[mweb08]

If this is the only argument for leaving Tony Gonzalez off the list, its not entirely fair. You can make the argument that post season performance should weigh heavily in basketball because the amount of difference one star player could make. Football being so team oriented, I don't think you can fault him for being on teams that didn't win in the playoffs. He's still far and away the best tight end in this time period. Also he was super durable throughout his career.

 

Oh snap, Kelly is stepping up her posting game!

 

Yeah, I agree. Especially when we are talking about a TE, I mean how much control does he really have over that?

[mweb08]

Rob and I recorded tonight and got through our #20-11th best players.

[Mike in STL]

Sorry Mike. Favre Top 5 is insane. I wouldn't even have him top 10. Maybe not even top 15.

Care to explain why? My reasoning is that he holds every record, 3-time MVP, didn't miss any games until really late in his career, Has a ring and went to two SBs, and won a ton of games, the most ever actually, when the NFC was the beast conference with the Niners and Cowboys dynasties, the Rams 'Greatest show on turf." Even the rival Vikings were the team to be when Moss was in his prime. 

 

If this is the only argument for leaving Tony Gonzalez off the list, its not entirely fair. You can make the argument that post season performance should weigh heavily in basketball because the amount of difference one star player could make. Football being so team oriented, I don't think you can fault him for being on teams that didn't win in the playoffs. He's still far and away the best tight end in this time period. Also he was super durable throughout his career.

The more I think about it, you're right. The best TE should be on this list somewhere, the best at each position should be represented. 

 

Rob and I recorded tonight and got through our #20-11th best players.

Can't wait to listen to it.

[mweb08]

Well you don't have to wait Mike.

[Mike in STL]

Well you don't have to wait Mike.

I saw it got posted a few days ago. But I actually did have to wait. Finally getting a chance to listen today. 

[mweb08]

I saw it got posted a few days ago. But I actually did have to wait. Finally getting a chance to listen today. 

 

I hope you enjoyed it besides the audio issues we are sometimes plagued with.

 

The remainder of the list will be up soon.

 

My 20-11th best players:

 

20. Gonzalez

19. E. Smith

18. Peterson

17. Marino

16. R. Woodson

15. Matthews

14. Young

13. Moss

12. Lewis

11. B. Smith

[mweb08]

Here's my top 10:

1. Rice
2. LT
3. White
4. Montana
5. Manning
6. Deion
7. Munoz
8. Lott
9. Barry Sanders
10. Brady

[JeremyStrain]

Here's my top 10:

1. Rice
2. LT
3. White
4. Montana
5. Manning
6. Deion
7. Munoz
8. Lott
9. Barry Sanders
10. Brady

 

Solid list.