152 replies to this topic

[FlavaDave10]

Keep in mind he did get a clean MRI back in the spring (right after he was shut down because of elbow tightness): http://articles.balt...lass-a-delmarva

 

Granted, MRIs aren't 100% reliable, but still. 

[Mackus]

I don't know why people think there has to be something sinister here from the Orioles perspective.

 

They obviously didn't know there was a tear.  If a tear is found, there is no fixing it through rehab.  There isn't necessarily a litmus test to find out if surgery is absolutely required or not.  If the tear is discovered, it's required, but the methods for determining if there is a tear or not aren't 100% accurate.  Sometimes the external scans are inconclusive, and in such cases it's way better to give it some time and see if you can avoid surgery than to just dive in and start slicing. 

 

Being 6-8 weeks behind the ball on his recovery time is a far lesser evil than if they had gone in and cut him up and then realized he didn't actually need the surgery.  Even if there is only a one in ten chance or worse of the rest & recovery option working, it's worth waiting and seeing to avoid both the inherent risks of surgery - even as mitigated as they now are with modern technology - and the far greater recovery period.

[NewMarketSean]

Thus just reinforces the drastic need for pitching depth. Thankfully we have some right now, but not much. You just need to keep adding pieces because you know several of them will not stay healthy.

[You Play to Win the Game]

We've made our stances clear, I'm comfortable with where I am on this one. Moving along.

[JHTerp01]

But Roy Firestone has been told that he wasn't getting TJ.  Weird.

[Mackus]

But Roy Firestone has been told that he wasn't getting TJ.  Weird.

 

Well, he wasn't.  Until yesterday.

[Mackus]

I can't move on.  There is just no rational reason to think the Orioles knew that surgery was required and instead chose to hope the tendon magically re-attached itself.

 

Look, I'm all for calling out the organization for being stupid when they are being stupid, but this is so obviously not that situation.  They were crazy cautious with Bundy since the moment they drafted him.  Why would they all of a sudden change that and try to get him to pitch with an elbow that they knew required surgery?

 

Also, why are we even assuming that it is the Orioles making the final decisions about whether he goes under the knife or if he tries rehab?  It's Bundy's arm.  He and his family has been heavily involved with his training and health since HS.  They aren't going to agree to a recovery plan that obviously had no hope of success.

[Jon Shepherd]

Yea, we are in agreement here.

 

I trust Carroll and that he knew what was wrong.  So, if the tear wasn't there and now all of a sudden it is, when he basically was doing nothing, it makes me think there was something worse to begin with.

 

I don't think there was a cover up.  The test came back without any indication of a torn UCL (which means something different than a test being "clean").  Pain was still present.  These diagnostics are not 100% fool proof.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I can't move on.  There is just no rational reason to think the Orioles knew that surgery was required and instead chose to hope the tendon magically re-attached itself.

 

Bottom line for me: If you want to assume with 100% certainty that the O's didn't think there could be a UCL thing and opted to delay the inevitable, then that's fine. Is it criminal, no. Would other organizations have opted to bite the bullet earlier and gotten him back sooner, yes. Having a different opinion than you isn't the same as being irrational though.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I don't think there was a cover up.  The test came back without any indication of a torn UCL (which means something different than a test being "clean").  Pain was still present.  These diagnostics are not 100% fool proof.

 

So did the most recent test come back with definitive UCL tear?

 

What is the quantitative measure for # of attempts/months spent "resting" until you say, screw the inconclusive tests, we're going in?

 

And who said anything about a cover up? I just think the O's blindly hoped it'd go away, instead of nipping it in the bud. Not the worst offense in the world, but I wish this had been dealt with a couple months ago, and that isn't in hindsight.

[FlavaDave10]

So did the most recent test come back with definitive UCL tear?

 

What is the quantitative measure for # of attempts/months spent "resting" until you say, screw the inconclusive tests, we're going in?

 

And who said anything about a cover up? I just think the O's blindly hoped it'd go away, instead of nipping it in the bud. Not the worst offense in the world, but I wish this had been dealt with a couple months ago, and that isn't in hindsight.

 

Well he got a clean MRI back in the spring. Short of scheduling another one when there was no reason to do so (Bundy said he was pain-free), I really can't see what else they could have done. Would Dr. James Andrews suggest something if he didn't think it would work? 

[Mackus]

It's stretching the rational to think that the Orioles knew that surgery was required or inevitable and instead opted for rehab that didn't have any chance of working.  And, somehow, convinced James Andrews to lie to his patient and the public about what the right course of action was as well.  There obviously was legitimate reason to wait, because, well, the best guy on the planet thought so.

 

There wasn't evidence that the tendon was torn back in late April.  They couldn't tell.  Sometimes you can't tell, the MRIs come back inconclusive or even as indicating there is no problem.  It's not hoping that something goes away.  It's hoping that there never was this problem at all and that the discomfort and soreness was something unrelated and, theoretically, much less severe.  Not all elbow and forearm soreness is because of a UCL tear.  Sometimes it's just discomfort, and that's what the team, Andrews, and Dylan were all hoping for, since there wasn't any definitive scan or test that showed the UCL as definitively torn.

 

Your question of "how long is enough time to try rehabbing" before just going in there is a very good and important one, and I don't know the answer.  From reading various articles recently, it sounds like 6-8 weeks seems to be about the magic number.  Bundy was working his way back and suffered a setback, though.  He had more discomfort pop up after feeling ok through his initial throwing sessions.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Your question of "how long is enough time to try rehabbing" before just going in there is a very good and important one, and I don't know the answer.  From reading various articles recently, it sounds like 6-8 weeks seems to be about the magic number.  Bundy was working his way back and suffered a setback, though.  He had more discomfort pop up after feeling ok through his initial throwing sessions.

 

Unless they've seen a tear on the MRI, in this particular case, are you OK with them going under at this point?

[Jon Shepherd]

So did the most recent test come back with definitive UCL tear?

 

What is the quantitative measure for # of attempts/months spent "resting" until you say, screw the inconclusive tests, we're going in?

 

And who said anything about a cover up? I just think the O's blindly hoped it'd go away, instead of nipping it in the bud. Not the worst offense in the world, but I wish this had been dealt with a couple months ago, and that isn't in hindsight.

 

Some people wrote of Orioles intentionally misleading folks somewhere above.

 

There is an error rate on these tests.  Sometimes you cannot see a tear.  That does not mean the image is "clean" as that means there is no problem.  Professional arms can look junky and rarely is anyone ever clean.  The problem is knowing whether or not a test is actually inconclusive.

 

If the test shows no clear damage and the patient is not complaining then you don't want to go in and do anything extreme.

 

I imagine Bundy probably was not completely forthright with how he felt.  There is also a slight chance that the tear just happened.

[Mackus]

Unless they've seen a tear on the MRI, in this particular case, are you OK with them going under at this point?

 

I'm trusting the guys who get paid to make those decisions.  If Andrews says, "it's been long enough, if it was something minor it would've improved by now, so now is the time to go cut and just fix it once and for all" then thats' fine by me.  I wouldn't have criticized the decision to operate back in April if that's what the medical people decided, either.

 

My problem is with those saying that the team doctors and the outside doctors that Bundy visited all should have operated on him then even though there was a realistic chance that rest and rehab could work.  The reason I know that there was a realistic chance of rehab working is because they tried it.  It's a bit of a Catch-22, but if Andrews says "hey this has a shot at working" then it probably has a shot at working.  I certainly don't think any of us, even guys with advanced knowledge about the specifics of this type of injury (like Jeremy), are in a position to criticize the medical decisions when we're a) not doctors and b ) haven't examined Bundy even if we are. 

 

It seems like many were just expecting the worst from the outset (which is fine), and once the worst happened, are now jumping to the conclusion that the worst was the only possible outcome (which is not fine).

[FlavaDave10]

Some people wrote of Orioles intentionally misleading folks somewhere above.

 

There is an error rate on these tests.  Sometimes you cannot see a tear.  That does not mean the image is "clean" as that means there is no problem.  Professional arms can look junky and rarely is anyone ever clean.  The problem is knowing whether or not a test is actually inconclusive.

 

If the test shows no clear damage and the patient is not complaining then you don't want to go in and do anything extreme.

 

I imagine Bundy probably was not completely forthright with how he felt.  There is also a slight chance that the tear just happened.

 

I think that is probably the most likely scenario.

[FlavaDave10]

Unless they've seen a tear on the MRI, in this particular case, are you OK with them going under at this point?

Whatever the heck Dr. James Andrews says, that's what I think. If he said to throw Dylan Bundy into hot lava, I'd be all for throwing Dylan Bundy into hot lava. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

Whatever the heck Dr. James Andrews says, that's what I think. If he said to throw Dylan Bundy into hot lava, I'd be all for throwing Dylan Bundy into hot lava. 

 

Real quality, contributive analysis here. Good talk.

 

I do understand where you guys are coming from.

[Stotle]

That's a respectable take. I personally disagree. I was convinced we were heading to surgery back in March or whenever this first broke. And here we are. He's had lingering elbow stuff since HS, and draft experts sort of predicted this outcome due to how much he was used in HS... and here we are. All this time wasted and now probably a year and a half at least until we get anything from Bundy.

Name a draft expert that sort of predicted this.

[You Play to Win the Game]

That's a respectable take. I personally disagree. I was convinced we were heading to surgery back in March or whenever this first broke. And here we are. He's had lingering elbow stuff since HS, and draft experts sort of predicted this outcome due to how much he was used in HS... and here we are. All this time wasted and now probably a year and a half at least until we get anything from Bundy.

Name a draft expert that sort of predicted this.

I'm good.

Guys... try googling "moving on".