172 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Wow! My list is much, much shorter.

Bradford has done nothing to show he can win a championship. Same with Freeman. Neither has made the playoffs. I'm not a believer in Cam. Stafford has never won a playoff game. Romo has been the reason his teams don't get to the playoffs and loses playoff games, much less be someone that can win a SB. Dalton? Come on.

Rivers couldn't as he is playing now. If he goes back to his previous form he could.

Cutler has won 1 playoff game in his career with some very decent and good teams, plus a top defense. But, I'll begrudgingly put him at the bottom of my list since I think he has the talent to do it.

I'd say:

1) Brady
2) Rodgers
3) Manning
4) Manning
5) Brees
6) Ben
7) Flacco
8) RG3
9) Luck
10) WIlson
11) Kap
12) Cutler

Weren't you trying to tell me that Schaub is elite earlier this season?

And Ricker's point about Smith is a good one (he should have been in the SB last year), plus Ryan is in the NFC title game so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

[PD24]

Weren't you trying to tell me that Schaub is elite earlier this season?

And Ricker's point about Smith is a good one (he should have been in the SB last year), plus Ryan is in the NFC title game so it's hard to keep him off the list imo.

Forgot about Ryan...you're right.

And I don't recall telling you that about Schuab...although I forgot him too on my list. I think he should be on there because with a really good team I think he could make it.

So that takes my list to 14. The thing is, when comparing Joe to some of these, specifically Cutler and Schuab, I think Joe can carry a team, whereas those 2 would just be along for the ride. I don't think Schuab or Cutler can win a playoff game for their team...Joe showed he can yesterday and several times in the past.

[BSLChrisStoner]

How many?

I think it would be interesting to evaluate that. Of course seeing what Joe does in his next one or potentially two games (along with what Kaepernick and Ryan do) will possibly change things.

I'd take Rodgers and Luck over him for the next 5 years.

Not Peyton, not Brady. I don't think Roethlisberger, or Eli will be any better.

I wouldn't take RG3 over Flacco, even before RG3's injury (and even with me thinking he will be fine).

I could see taking Wilson.. couple years younger, the legs. I'd take Flacco, because you are talking 5 years, not 10.

Need to see more of Kaepernick. Knew he was athletic, didn't realize until last night, just how athletic.

Cutler is a guy with a similar arm, don't see any reason to take him over Flacco though.
Ryan will remain a quality QB, and is probably better at touch passes in underneath coverage. He doesn't match Joe physically though. I'd rather have Flacco.

Rivers has struggled the last few years, but I think he is still capable of quality years. At this point, can't see taking Rivers over Flacco.

Stafford has a lot of talent... but has had injury issues. Joe's made every start of his career.

Romo? No.

Newton? A case can be made. Next year should be interesting for him.

Dalton? No. Schaub? No.

Freeman? Another guy I think is very talented. I like Freeman a lot, but I know some said his decision making regressed this year. Don't think you can take him over Joe.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Forgot about Ryan...you're right.

And I don't recall telling you that about Schuab...although I forgot him too on my list. I think he should be on there because with a really good team I think he could make it.

So that takes my list to 14. The thing is, when comparing Joe to some of these, specifically Cutler and Schuab, I think Joe can carry a team, whereas those 2 would just be along for the ride. I don't think Schuab or Cutler can win a playoff game for their team...Joe showed he can yesterday and several times in the past.

The line stepped up huge for Joe last week. That was the key, IMO. That, in essence, is not carrying the team. I think that term gets used too freely in a game where TEAM is just so, so important. (Sorry, I know I sound like a broken record about the team thing).

[mweb08]

Forgot about Ryan...you're right.

And I don't recall telling you that about Schuab...although I forgot him too on my list. I think he should be on there because with a really good team I think he could make it.

So that takes my list to 14. The thing is, when comparing Joe to some of these, specifically Cutler and Schuab, I think Joe can carry a team, whereas those 2 would just be along for the ride. I don't think Schuab or Cutler can win a playoff game for their team...Joe showed he can yesterday and several times in the past.

I disagree about the carrying the team part. QB's tend to get too much credit and blame imo. Yesterday seems to be yet another example of this. And again, Alex Smith should have been in the SB last year.

[mweb08]

I'd take Rodgers and Luck over him for the next 5 years.

Not Peyton, not Brady. I don't think Roethlisberger, or Eli will be any better.

I wouldn't take RG3 over Flacco, even before RG3's injury (and even with me thinking he will be fine).

I could see taking Wilson.. couple years younger, the legs. I'd take Flacco, because you are talking 5 years, not 10.

Need to see more of Kaepernick. Knew he was athletic, didn't realize until last night, just how athletic.

Cutler is a guy with a similar arm, don't see any reason to take him over Flacco though.
Ryan will remain a quality QB, and is probably better at touch passes in underneath coverage. He doesn't match Joe physically though. I'd rather have Flacco.

Rivers has struggled the last few years, but I think he is still capable of quality years. At this point, can't see taking Rivers over Flacco.

Stafford has a lot of talent... but has had injury issues. Joe's made every start of his career.

Romo? No.

Newton? A case can be made. Next year should be interesting for him.

Dalton? No. Schaub? No.

Freeman? Another guy I think is very talented. I like Freeman a lot, but I know some said his decision making regressed this year. Don't think you can take him over Joe.

Well obviously I'm not nearly as high on Flacco as are you.

BTW, I'm not a Flacco hater either. I may seem like one in part because of how some people have responded to some of my posts, but if you really look at my posts, you'll see that I wasn't ripping him. Just want to make that clear.

[bnickle]

There is a difference between a line stepping up for you and giving you time to make plays and Qbs that could conceivably ride a defense to the SB. I mean Rex Grossman made the freaking SB. Dilfer won one. SO yeah, the list is probably 20 long on guys that with the exact, perfect situation could win a SB. Thats different than a QB stepping up and going out and winning games at times. Granted with his players playing well around him.


Let me put it this way. Given the exact conditions Flacco was put in yesterday I sure as hell don;t see 20 QBs winning that game yesterday or even being in a position to win if you wanna discount the last minute fling.


BTW all the talk on the last min fling is the poor coverage, which is true, but Flacco had to throw the ball that far while running up in the pocket in those conditions. Peyton Manning couldn't even have attempted that throw nor could a lot of other Qbs in the league. You can say it should have been picked off but Joe had his eye on that safety, he saw he was out of position and had a chance to beat him on it. A lot of Qbs may have seen that and still knew they had no chance to actually throw it as far as they needed to throw it in that situation. People want to point out all these mistakes Den made but dont want to give any credit to a QB that had the ability to take advantage of those mistakes.

[bnickle]

The line stepped up huge for Joe last week. That was the key, IMO. That, in essence, is not carrying the team. I think that term gets used too freely in a game where TEAM is just so, so important. (Sorry, I know I sound like a broken record about the team thing).

I've said many times that the Oline playing well is the biggest key for Joe. That said, Joe is an elite thrower of the football when he gets good OL play. So to assume that just anyone is going to step in and play at the level Joe can play when an Oline is playing well is wrong. Not that you are saying that but it's almost like I'm getting a vibe that all Qbs would be good if they just had good Oline play. Not true.

[bnickle]

Well obviously I'm not nearly as high on Flacco as are you.

BTW, I'm not a Flacco hater either. I may seem like one in part because of how some people have responded to some of my posts, but if you really look at my posts, you'll see that I wasn't ripping him. Just want to make that clear.

You may not hate him, but you underrate him. As do the majority of people.

[mweb08]

If we're to talk about before that pass to Jones, then I'd say that a fair amount of QB's probably could have produced 21 points up to that point with great protection, a good running game, a TO that put them inside the DEN 40, and Torrey Smith running past Champ Bailey consistently (Joe hit him on 1 of 3 potential TD's, and Smith had a very nice TD catch on a ball that Champ had good coverage on). So Joe played very well, and I know how this type of post will be perceived by some, but I don't think that was some astounding performance.

[You Play to Win the Game]

If we're to talk about before that pass to Jones, then I'd say that a fair amount of QB's probably could have produced 21 points up to that point with great protection, a good running game, a TO that put them inside the DEN 40, and Torrey Smith running past Champ Bailey consistently (Joe hit him on 1 of 3 potential TD's, and Smith had a very nice TD catch on a ball that Champ had good coverage on). So Joe played very well, and I know how this type of post will be perceived by some, but I don't think that was some astounding performance.

But I think it was given the circumstances. Environment, altitude, playoff pressure, etc.

[SportsGuy]

You may not hate him, but you underrate him. As do the majority of people.

Yea, Mweb clearly underrated him BUT I don't blame him because he doesn't watch him week in and week out.

Not many QBs are able to make some of those throws, in those conditions, that Joe made in Denver.

[mweb08]

But I think it was given the circumstances. Environment, altitude, playoff pressure, etc.

It was a good one. If that' an astounding game, then there are too many astounding games imo. Before that last TD, 21 points and a turnover (not sure how much that was on him vs the center) given the things I just said is not astounding imo. In terms of that last TD and what happened in OT, I'll choose to look at the process rather than simply going off the results, which is what I prefer (the same method gives Flacco credit for the pass to Lee Evans last year). When doing it that way, I see a pass that even with the safety screwing up on the coverage, should have been picked or at the very least knocked down, and then an entire OT without scoring including a horrible pass that could have been picked, but he did have a great pass to Pitta that helped with field position.

[mweb08]

You may not hate him, but you underrate him. As do the majority of people.

That's your opinion and yet, you don't even know where I rate him.

[mweb08]

Yea, Mweb clearly underrated him BUT I don't blame him because he doesn't watch him week in and week out.

Not many QBs are able to make some of those throws, in those conditions, that Joe made in Denver.

Clearly based on what?

You guys really need to go back and read what I've said if you want to make these comments.

[bnickle]

But I think it was given the circumstances. Environment, altitude, playoff pressure, etc.

People totally underrate the conditions and the effect that had on the game and the QBs. Not just physically being able to throw the ball but mentally as well. You won't convinve more than a handfull of QBs play that well under those condiditons. ANother one of those variables that you 'll never prove unless it happens. So it's easy to say, for example,Tony Romo probably would have done just as well, until you actually see TOny Romo step out onto the field and struggle under those conditions.

[You Play to Win the Game]

It was a good one. If that' an astounding game, then there are too many astounding games imo. Before that last TD, 21 points and a turnover (not sure how much that was on him vs the center) given the things I just said is not astounding imo. In terms of that last TD and what happened in OT, I'll choose to look at the process rather than simply going off the results, which is what I prefer (the same method gives Flacco credit for the pass to Lee Evans last year). When doing it that way, I see a pass that even with the safety screwing up on the coverage, should have been picked or at the very least knocked down, and then an entire OT without scoring including a horrible pass that could have been picked, but he did have a great pass to Pitta that helped with field position.

You seem to be completely disregarding the circumstances. Going up against Manning, the pressure of wanting to win for Ray, the pressure of the contract extension hanging over your head, getting blown out by Denver at home not long ago, Mile High, etc. I'm obviously sensationalizing it a bit here, but I personally rate his performance higher when taking everything into account.

Now, looking at his play in a vacuum (some of the throws, the poor 3rd down conversion ratio until the end, etc.), I can see why you might rate it as good, but not great. But I personally buy into the noise and circumstance factor. I think it exists, and I think plenty of good QBs wouldn't have done what he did last night. JMO though.

[bnickle]

Clearly based on what?

You guys really need to go back and read what I've said if you want to make these comments.

It's clear to me at least that you pick out a lot of little things about Flacco. So it's always well if this defensive player would have did this or that defensive player would have did that then Flacco wouldn't have looked as good, etc. Do you know how many times you can say that about every QB in the game. Every QB gets away with poor passes, every Qb picks on certain defenders, or takes andvantages of poor defensive executuion. You seemingly point out every time it happens with Flacco.

[SportsGuy]

Clearly based on what?

You guys really need to go back and read what I've said if you want to make these comments.

You are like the ESPN writer who is looking for reasons not to give Flacco enough credit.

There has never been an NFL game, in the history of the league, where you can't say, an inch here or there, a dropped pass here or there, etc...so, the constant harping on that is absurd.

Do you take credit away from Mannings beautiful TD pass to Stokely because a LBer was on him? Or do you say, if it was just an inch off, it's not a TD?

[mweb08]

You seem to be completely disregarding the circumstances. Going up against Manning, the pressure of wanting to win for Ray, the pressure of the contract extension hanging over your head, getting blown out by Denver at home not long ago, Mile High, etc. I'm obviously sensationalizing it a bit here, but I personally rate his performance higher when taking everything into account.

Not at all, that's just your assumption, but I think the O-Line giving him significantly better protection than expected, Rice running well, and Torrey Smith dominating his match-up with a Pro Bowl corner are pretty big circumstances too and I know you agree with that. I'm saying he played very well. I'm just not going to totally gush over putting up 21 points in that circumstance and then having a DB fail to make an easy play, which allowed the game to be tied. Sorry if that's not praising him enough for some. If that was an astounding or amazing game or whatever, then there were 3 other games of that magnitude by QB's this weekend imo.