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The Importance Of Keeping Franchise Players


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#21 mweb08

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:34 AM

Adley, Gunnar, Grayson etc are going to come and go and the truth is you'll still be rooting for the laundry regardless.

And the bandwagon that has filled up this year will still be full of casual fans if the team continues to win.

And the bandwagon will get lighter if they suck again.


Again Machado. He's not getting an Orioles statue, he's not going into the HOF as an Oriole, and nobody cares because the current team is good and there are new names.

I'm not sure what points you feel like you're arguing against. I literally already said I'd still root for them regardless.

I guess I'll just rephrase this:

The fan experience will not be at its fullest for many people if the franchise operates this way.

Evidence: Everything that comes from being a human being and sports fan that interacts with other human beings and sports fans.

Ok, so I may have lost with that. So...

Evidence: the collection of posts on your own message board on this very topic.

Btw, I care that Manny isn't still on the club (I realize opinions vary on this one, but that's more because some people don't really like Manny much). I'll grant you that it stings less at this particular moment though due to the success as well as our young infield talent. Oh, and I also still care that Moose went to the Yankees. And don't get me started on Jeffrey Hammonds going to Cincy. Ok, so that last one is a bit facetious although I was a big fan for whatever reasons.

#22 ivanbalt

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:35 AM

I keep thinking Chris Davis may have survived if the shift was gone years ago. All those balls hit to the short rightfielder.


Maybe.  Giancarlo Stanton is quickly becoming like Davis and the shift is gone now.  At least Davis could field pretty well and cost less.  :lol:



#23 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:38 AM

I'm not sure what points you feel like you're arguing against. I literally already said I'd still root for them regardless.




Should have stopped here, because this is the bottomline.

#24 Mike in STL

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:40 AM

Chris, it may not matter to you, but it absolutely matters to a lot of people.

There's also a significant gulf between spending a 20 year career with the team compared to 4ish.

So sure, the world and game is different now, so with that said if a franchise player stuck around for 10+ years, that would suffice. Eddie is a perfect example from the past actually.

Dealing all the top guys with 2 or so years left on their original club control will not suffice for me and many others.

Now that doesn't mean I'd be out as a fan, but it does mean my fan experience will be noticeably diminished.

I will definitely be out as a fan if they gave Adley, Gunnar etc. the Jorge Lopez treatment. If they price themselves out of here, it is what it is. I'd rather be proactive and have them not end up like Machado. The Braves should be the model. Not the A's. 

 

It sure would be nice to add a few more statues and long-time O's to Cooperstown before I'm dead. I'd love for my little guys to have someone to look up to like I did with Cal and our dad's did with Brooks, rather than the team be a feeder system for the New Yorks and LAs and Chicagos. You know, the teams apparently that have all the advantages already.


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#25 Mike in STL

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:42 AM

I hope the Os trade Adley in two years, so I realize I'm the extreme of the other spectrum.

Ridiculous. Shameful even.


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#26 mweb08

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:45 AM

Should have stopped here, because this is the bottomline.


So nothing else matters?

Cool, thanks for trying your best to understand that people have feelings and get attached to more than just the laundry.

#27 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:46 AM

Ridiculous. Shameful even.


I'm not real interested in extending him, and I don't want to trade him like Machado was (without the obtaining team having remaining control).  

Get what you can get for him then.  Replenish. 

Gunnar, and Grayson and probably Bradish are priorities for me over him.  But same thing with them. 
Can't reach extensions, trade them after Year 4.



#28 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:46 AM

So nothing else matters?

Cool, thanks for trying your best to understand that people have feelings and get attached to more than just the laundry.


Don’t ruin the Brooks tribute thread please

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

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#29 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:49 AM

So nothing else matters?

Cool, thanks for trying your best to understand that people have feelings and get attached to more than just the laundry.


Bottomline is that Machado, Mussina, etc moved on, and you are still a fan. 
When these guys move on, you'll still be a fan. 
 

And the casual fans who are hooked this year because the team is good, will still be paying attention if the team remains good, and out if the team sucks. 

You like certain players, I get it.
You'd like to have a larger, long-term connection with some players, I get that too. 

But you acknowledge you'll still be a fan when these players leave, so it is what it is.



#30 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:50 AM


Don’t ruin the Brooks tribute thread please

He’s not. There is a Brooks tribute thread because thankfully a lot of people do think differently than Chris. Weber wants more tribute threads.
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#31 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:51 AM

He’s not. There is a Brooks tribute thread because thankfully a lot of people do think differently than Chris. Weber wants more tribute threads.


Eh it’s devolving into some weird aggressive debate.

This should be about sharing stories and honoring the man. The last thing he would want, I think, is two fans bickering over the future of the team the day after they clinch the division title.

But I digress!

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

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#32 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:53 AM

I mean I’d wonder how Brooks would feel about things if he considered if he played in today’s era, you’ve got people like Chris and trust fund baby who would ship he and his family off to the highest bidder so they can get richer, and justifying it with “the fans will still be fans, so who cares?”

Advocating against retaining team icons and legends feels more like ruining a Brooks tribute thread than what Weber is doing.
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#33 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 09:55 AM

This is better!
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There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

@bopper33


#34 Mike in STL

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 10:43 AM

If this team operates like the A's, and adopts Chris' way, I'm 100% out. 

 

Replenishing is cheap. Not easy. 

 

Again, Braves model. Not A's model. Not sure how you can possibly look at the two and decide the A's model is the way to go.


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#35 makoman

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:04 AM

The team could have traded Brooks after 1964, probably for a haul as the MVP, most RBIs in the league, and best fielder in the game. Probably 99.99% of O's fans would have remained O's fans. Maybe '66 and '70 go the same way, let's say they made a good trade so assume they do. So no one would be worse off and everything would be basically the same, to Chris. Maybe it's even better, depending on the trade.

 

I didn't live through that time, but I would be really shocked if anyone who did, who could look back and see both outcomes, would be ok with that. Older relatives spoke reverently of him, yes even casual baseball fans. The outpouring of support I've seen this week is amazing for someone who last played close to 50 years ago. It's just obvious that this man meant a lot to the Baltimore community. If he plays the last 10+ years of his career on the Cardinals you very likely lose all that. 

 

The game has changed, so you basically expect everyone to leave within 6 years. You have to be ok with that, or you can't really be a fan. Just about every team extends some guys, but just by the percentages your favorite player will probably be elsewhere in 5 years. The Adam Jones 10 year guy is the exception. We all hated the Adam Wainwright game, but I bet his career was pretty cool for Cards fans. But anyway, being ok with it is far different than actively rooting for it. To talk about wanting to get rid of Adley, before he's even finished his first full year on the roster, it's just so weird to me. You're saying I don't want what I've just seen with Brooks. No, not everyone is going to be like Brooks or even Adam Jones. It's probably unlikely Adley becomes the new Mr. Oriole. But if you trade everyone after 3-4 years then unlikely becomes impossible. I am loathe to tell anyone how to fan, but I will just say I can't understand it, I can't understand giving that no value.

 

I wish we'd had Frank for 20 years, even though I never saw a game of his. Yes, I wish we still had Manny, a lot of people hated him by the end but I wasn't one. I wish Mussina stayed. Eddie Murray was my favorite player growing up, I wish he wasn't traded. Of course I remained a fan of the team when all those guys left, but I don't see that as some kind of check and mate. Just because it was fine doesn't mean it couldn't have been better. It would have been nice to root for them their whole careers, just like for my parents' generation it was no doubt nicer getting to root for over 20 years of Brooks.

 

If the team has like 80% turnover in the next few years, I'll live with it. I can respect 2035 and Mike saying they'd leave. I imagine I'll still be a fan, I've been a fan for 40 years, what am I going to do watch the Nats? But my experience will, IMO, be richer if a bunch of these guys I followed in the minors who gave me some hope and excitement during the years the team sucked, that were directly part of this turnaround and caused this fun season, continue to be on the team for 10+ years. Ultimately I will root for the laundry, but I don't think that's some gotcha. No player is bigger than the team, teams and fans always move on, but the people matter too, it's an enhancement as people said. Just because it's fine doesn't mean it can't be better. If we somehow just got 26 new free agents and won I'm sure it would still be great, but it would sure feel strange I think. It would have been a better experience, to me, to root for not just the team I liked but also for the players that I've grown to like.


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#36 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:05 AM

If this team operates like the A's, and adopts Chris' way, I'm 100% out. 

 

Replenishing is cheap. Not easy. 

 

Again, Braves model. Not A's model. Not sure how you can possibly look at the two and decide the A's model is the way to go.


Braves model (actually early 90s Indians model) is great. 

Rays model is fine by me....  the O's don't have to operate like that (they can certainly spend more)  but if the choose to, that's fine by me if they make decisions that need to be made (such as trading players when obtaining teams would still have additional control vs trading them on walk years and getting less in return).

Operate in any manner you want; just build a long-term consistent winner, that regularly has a chance at contention. 

 



#37 Mike in STL

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:22 AM


Braves model (actually early 90s Indians model) is great. 

Rays model is fine by me....  the O's don't have to operate like that (they can certainly spend more)  but if the choose to, that's fine by me if they make decisions that need to be made (such as trading players when obtaining teams would still have additional control vs trading them on walk years and getting less in return).

Operate in any manner you want; just build a long-term consistent winner, that regularly has a chance at contention. 

 

That's not what the A's are, but that's what you're proposing by shipping off talent early and choosing not to spend.


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#38 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:37 AM

Fan sentimentality is real and matters. There's also a reason you should keep as many foundational players around all through their prime as you can....winning. Even low-spending clubs like Cleveland and Tampa have done this to some degree. Flipping every single good player you have as they approach free agency isn't the formula for sustained success (see: A's, Oakland/Las Vegas). While the current organization has done very well at identifying young talent, odds are you will have enough misses that it's just too hard to keep winning at the big league level.



#39 mweb08

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:37 AM


Bottomline is that Machado, Mussina, etc moved on, and you are still a fan.
When these guys move on, you'll still be a fan.

And the casual fans who are hooked this year because the team is good, will still be paying attention if the team remains good, and out if the team sucks.

You like certain players, I get it.
You'd like to have a larger, long-term connection with some players, I get that too.

But you acknowledge you'll still be a fan when these players leave, so it is what it is.


Things can be important beyond whatever you want to simply label as the bottom line.

#40 ivanbalt

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Posted 29 September 2023 - 11:38 AM

That's not what the A's are, but that's what you're proposing by shipping off talent early and choosing not to spend.


Or Pirates.






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